What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o...
Am 19.10.2015 um 14:24 schrieb Glenn Holmer:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o...
that KDE5 is far away from the usability and stability before upgrade to Fedora 22 and i don't give a shit about opinions who and what is guilty - after years get KDE4 relieable, stable and feature complete we are now at the same point as with KDE4.2 or so while i didn't find a single improvement for the user
Glenn Holmer wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o...
Spot on and accurate.
My only minor criticism, I would've liked to see more mention of driver issues, particularly about non-intel opensource ones. As written, makes it sound like intel-on-linux is a poor choice, when in reality it is among the better options (imo)
-- Rex
Rex Dieter wrote:
As written, makes it sound like intel-on-linux is a poor choice, when in reality it is among the better options (imo)
I don't have one of the newer CPUs with integrated graphics. I am still using the older Intel graphics on the motherboard, but...
I have had no issues whatsoever! It has worked like a charm. I did experience a couple of freeze-ups about a month ago, when the beta was first released (about one or two plasma updates ago), but... I think it was related to flash? In any case, that has disappeared.
I like how plasma is now more streamlined, with only the two activities, desktop and folder view. The other ones, newspaper view and tiled and columns and whatnot were so confusing. I was never able to apply them in any workable way.
I use virtual desktops all of the time and they are crucial to my day-to-day use. I nearly toppled from my chair when I read that they are problematic. I have never experienced any problems. They allow me to have numerous programs open at the same time without having to flip through layers of open windows. I have not tried using the cube in F23, so perhaps that is why I haven't experienced difficulties? I am using desktop grid for switching, which works perfectly.
I have still never figured out what the dashboard is. Whenever I display it, nothing happens! It is meaningless to me.
I have also not yet used the multi-screen function on plasma 5, so I cannot comment.
I noticed that quite a lot of widgets are not available in plasma 5. At first I was slightly disappointed, but recognized that I was using a beta anyway, so I couldn't expect it to be perfect yet. After having used the system for a month, I don't miss those applets. There are high quality kde applications that provide those functions and that information. For my own use, it is not necessary to duplicate all of that functionality... and the system tray is smaller and less cluttered without. All of the system features are implemented. For me, that's all I need.
In résumé, I can only say that plasma 5 has been a huge success for me. I have no disappointments and have suffered no inconveniences. It all works and it looks great, except the missing breeze-gtk ;-)
I choked on my coffee when I read: "One of the most severe issues we hit with Plasma 5 is an issue with the Intel graphics drivers. I think that this problem is the reason why people complain about instability of Plasma. The only reason." I use AMD Radeon... others use Nvidia... they are reporting plasma freezes. I've had an issue since May, provided numerous traces... it is still unresolved. Crickets... It is quite a coincidence that all three major drivers, Intel, Nvidia and AMD have issues with Plasma - at the same time. The attitude seems to be let's make whatever changes we want in a vacuum and when things go south blame Qt, blame Intel (without ever acknowledging the issues with Nvidia and AMD), blame Kwin. As I have noted many times, I only have problems with Plasma5... not with Gnome, Plasma4, LXQt.
I completely understand that these issues will be uncovered because more people are using Plasma5 now, and I'm not criticizing the Fedora KDE team here or the decision to move to Plasma5 - but this blog post from the Plasma5 team saying they are "shocked, shocked" people are having issues and complaining about Plasma5 is a bit rich.
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Glenn Holmer shadowm@lyonlabs.org wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o...
-- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe." _______________________________________________ kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
In my case, Plasma 5.2 in Kubuntu 15.04 was very unstable, something like a 5/10 I later used their Netinstall ISO with a PPA to get Plasma 5.3 and the user experience improved a lot, i would rate it 7/10.
Later, knowing Fedora used the same Plasma versión, but with more updated software, i installed F22 and with Plasma 5.4 everything worked pretty good. I would say 8.5/10.
My experience has been actually so good, that i changed to Fedora KDE as my main distro.
I dont understand the people commenting about KDE 4.x vs Plasma 5.
The KDE community prepared the KDE 4.12 as a Long Term Support for the people commenting about the unstable situation of Plasma 5.x, for them Kubuntu 14.04 and Debian 8 KDE are the best choices.
And the unstable situation of Plasma 5 in a distro focused in the end user such as Kubuntu 15.04 and 15.10, those are like "incremental development stages", the complains about Plasma 5 not ready for the end user would be 100% valid in Kubuntu 16.04.
And about OpenSUSE Leap chosing Plasma 5.4, i think that was too early since their focus now is being stable.
Hernán El oct. 19, 2015 7:58 AM, "Gerald B. Cox" gbcox@bzb.us escribió:
I choked on my coffee when I read: "One of the most severe issues we hit with Plasma 5 is an issue with the Intel graphics drivers. I think that this problem is the reason why people complain about instability of Plasma. The only reason." I use AMD Radeon... others use Nvidia... they are reporting plasma freezes. I've had an issue since May, provided numerous traces... it is still unresolved. Crickets... It is quite a coincidence that all three major drivers, Intel, Nvidia and AMD have issues with Plasma - at the same time. The attitude seems to be let's make whatever changes we want in a vacuum and when things go south blame Qt, blame Intel (without ever acknowledging the issues with Nvidia and AMD), blame Kwin. As I have noted many times, I only have problems with Plasma5... not with Gnome, Plasma4, LXQt.
I completely understand that these issues will be uncovered because more people are using Plasma5 now, and I'm not criticizing the Fedora KDE team here or the decision to move to Plasma5 - but this blog post from the Plasma5 team saying they are "shocked, shocked" people are having issues and complaining about Plasma5 is a bit rich.
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Glenn Holmer shadowm@lyonlabs.org wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o...
-- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe." _______________________________________________ kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Hernán Ramírez h2222080@gmail.com wrote:
I dont understand the people commenting about KDE 4.x vs Plasma 5.
In my case it was a reference to this issue which I reported in May, 2015 and is still open: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1217844
The problem I am experiencing doesn't occur on GNOME3, LXQt with Kwin or KDE4; yet it just happens to be a driver issue, not Plasma5.
Going back to the bug report, I've provided all the requested information - multiple times..last update by me was August, asking if I needed to provide additional info... no activity since... and people seem shocked and dismayed when frustration occurs.
Am 19.10.2015 um 19:05 schrieb Gerald B. Cox:
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Hernán Ramírez <h2222080@gmail.com mailto:h2222080@gmail.com> wrote:
I dont understand the people commenting about KDE 4.x vs Plasma 5.
In my case it was a reference to this issue which I reported in May, 2015 and is still open: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1217844
The problem I am experiencing doesn't occur on GNOME3, LXQt with Kwin or KDE4; yet it just happens to be a driver issue, not Plasma5.
Going back to the bug report, I've provided all the requested information - multiple times..last update by me was August, asking if I needed to provide additional info... no activity since... and people seem shocked and dismayed when frustration occurs.
another point:
just the positioning of plasmaoids on the desktop is enough to call it all a joke
* large spaces * try to position them tighter moves them inside a invisible raster * move them too far to the controlbar moves them into it with no way out and the "too far" is a laughable wasted space * the resizing is still as braindead as with KDE4 - where i live you place this first on the top left edge and then rsize down/right while plasma supports only the opposite
that is just a usability nightmare!
network-monitoring plasma: why the hell can't i choose my other nics/bridges instead just "vmnet1", "wlan0", "wlan1" and "wan"? the machine is acting as switch and "lan-phone" as well as "lan-tv" are definitly up and connected
I'm using intel graphics ATM, maybe that's why I see lots of problems with switching between multiple screens
On Monday 19 October 2015 07:24:45 Glenn Holmer wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o f-plasma-5/
I really really do not care where the faults lie. The simple fact of the matter is that 5 is so faulty, for what ever reason, that I cannot use it. That is the beginning and the end of the story.
Sorry dudes... But I will not be upgrading to Fedora 22, or 23 or whatever. At least for the next year and a half I will be chugging along with kde 4.x and using a different distro.
The impact of KDE5 is that severe on my day to day use.
Eli
On Tuesday 20 October 2015 19:44:01 Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Sorry dudes... But I will not be upgrading to Fedora 22, or 23 or whatever. At least for the next year and a half I will be chugging along with kde 4.x and using a different distro.
Just to add a bit of friendly spam in case you have missed it, there is KDE4 available in F22 now :
https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/peem/kde4-fedora/
Needs testing and feedback :)
Regards, Piotr
On Friday 23 October 2015 09:03:04 Piotr Gbyliczek wrote:
On Tuesday 20 October 2015 19:44:01 Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Sorry dudes... But I will not be upgrading to Fedora 22, or 23 or whatever. At least for the next year and a half I will be chugging along with kde 4.x and using a different distro.
Just to add a bit of friendly spam in case you have missed it, there is KDE4 available in F22 now :
https://copr.fedoraproject.org/coprs/peem/kde4-fedora/
Needs testing and feedback :)
Without a commitment for maintenance :(
Trust me when I tell you that I understand the words "time constraints"
Eli
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
I really really do not care where the faults lie. The simple fact of the matter is that 5 is so faulty, for what ever reason, that I cannot use it. That is the beginning and the end of the story.
Sorry dudes... But I will not be upgrading to Fedora 22, or 23 or whatever. At least for the next year and a half I will be chugging along with kde 4.x and using a different distro.
The impact of KDE5 is that severe on my day to day use.
I found kde5 more or less unusable initially, because of freezing and also some problems with KMail. But now I'm finding it quite usable with Fedora-23beta.
However, I do not see any actual advantages over kde4 for my simple uses. (Nor did kde4 seem any better than kde3, I repeat for my simple use.)
Booting on my Fedora/KDE laptop seems to me much inferior to previous versions, and also takes longer. I liked the icons that came up to show me the various steps as they were completed. I don't like the meaningless horizontal bar that is gradually filled, but in my case at least is never completely filled.
Timothy Murphy wrote:
I liked the icons that came up to show me the
various
steps as they were completed.
I always thought they were so ugly—holdovers from KDE2, likely. I am so glad they finally got rid of them. I tried for years to get rid of them and the best I could come up with was to settle for the plain background with the horizontal bar. And, guess what! The horizontal bar is what we now have in KDE5! :-) Progress LOL! This horizontal bar actually tells you something, since it has steps and they are all completed, or else something didn't load. I remember Windows XP, I think, that had the most infuriating horizontal bar in existence: it just kept on moving from left to right and back again to start anew, so you never knew where you were or if anything was happening LOL!!
Am 25.10.2015 um 05:46 schrieb P. Gueckel:
Timothy Murphy wrote:
I liked the icons that came up to show me the
various
steps as they were completed.
I always thought they were so ugly—holdovers from KDE2, likely. I am so glad they finally got rid of them. I tried for years to get rid of them and the best I could come up with was to settle for the plain background with the horizontal bar. And, guess what! The horizontal bar is what we now have in KDE5! :-) Progress LOL! This horizontal bar actually tells you something, since it has steps and they are all completed, or else something didn't load. I remember Windows XP, I think, that had the most infuriating horizontal bar in existence: it just kept on moving from left to right and back again to start anew, so you never knew where you were or if anything was happening LOL!!
fact is that this progress stuff is only needed here since upgrade to Fedora 22 because the hardware is so fricking fast that the last 4 years it was disabled
*whatever* KDE5 does here at the login time is pure crap because there is no CPU lod and no disk I/O at that time (easily to verify by press CTRL+ALT+F2 and start htop)
Funny!
My telephone numbers: +7(916)585-5548, +7(925)129-1220
On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:46 AM, P. Gueckel pgueckel@gmail.com wrote:
Timothy Murphy wrote:
I liked the icons that came up to show me the
various
steps as they were completed.
I always thought they were so ugly—holdovers from KDE2, likely. I am so glad they finally got rid of them. I tried for years to get rid of them and the best I could come up with was to settle for the plain background with the horizontal bar. And, guess what! The horizontal bar is what we now have in KDE5! :-) Progress LOL! This horizontal bar actually tells you something, since it has steps and they are all completed, or else something didn't load. I remember Windows XP, I think, that had the most infuriating horizontal bar in existence: it just kept on moving from left to right and back again to start anew, so you never knew where you were or if anything was happening LOL!!
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Monday 19 October 2015 07:24:45 Glenn Holmer wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o f-plasma-5/
I've come to the conclusion that Jack Wallen is a first rate troll. He pretends to write about Linux and open source when it would seem that all he does is discourage
His latest on Email Clients is a doosey.
Dear Eli,
I don't think Glen is a troll since it was recently confirmed that all trolls live here in Russia :) Simply his task is fairly complicated.
Let us be optimistic, I personally use two computers under Fedora 21, 20 and two under Fedora 19. The latter two work perfectly, so I intentionally don't upgrade them, except for custom installations of up-to-date Firefox. I'm sure we have to praise fates that such a thing as KDE does exist and that we aren't looking at strange Windows' GUI and don't spend money on good MAC machines. We just should wait a bit till things settle, right?
Regards
My telephone numbers: +7(916)585-5548, +7(925)129-1220
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Eli Wapniarski eli@orbsky.homelinux.org wrote:
On Monday 19 October 2015 07:24:45 Glenn Holmer wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality-o
f-plasma-5/
I've come to the conclusion that Jack Wallen is a first rate troll. He pretends to write about Linux and open source when it would seem that all he does is discourage
His latest on Email Clients is a doosey.
-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Kmail /Kontact has proven itself to be stable snappy reliable bit of highly complex code. Personally, I wouldn't dream of using anything else.
He writes about Kontact as though he was using the transitional versions that was released years and years ago.
Sheesh
On Wednesday 28 October 2015 17:10:51 Oleg Markin wrote:
Dear Eli,
I don't think Glen is a troll since it was recently confirmed that all trolls live here in Russia :) Simply his task is fairly complicated.
Let us be optimistic, I personally use two computers under Fedora 21, 20 and two under Fedora 19. The latter two work perfectly, so I intentionally don't upgrade them, except for custom installations of up-to-date Firefox. I'm sure we have to praise fates that such a thing as KDE does exist and that we aren't looking at strange Windows' GUI and don't spend money on good MAC machines. We just should wait a bit till things settle, right?
Regards
My telephone numbers: +7(916)585-5548, +7(925)129-1220
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 8:22 PM, Eli Wapniarski eli@orbsky.homelinux.org
wrote:
On Monday 19 October 2015 07:24:45 Glenn Holmer wrote:
What do you think?
http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/10/some-thoughts-on-the-quality -o>
f-plasma-5/
I've come to the conclusion that Jack Wallen is a first rate troll. He pretends to write about Linux and open source when it would seem that all he does is discourage
His latest on Email Clients is a doosey.
-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Kmail /Kontact has proven itself to be stable snappy reliable bit of highly complex code.
LOL hahahahaha! KMail 2 is anything except stable, snappy and/or reliable. Seeing those 3 adjectives used for the extremely buggy, glacially slow and unreliable KMail 2 / Akonadi makes me wonder whether we are even talking about the same piece of software!
Personally, I wouldn't dream of using anything else.
That's only because the alternatives are even worse.
He writes about Kontact as though he was using the transitional versions that was released years and years ago.
"Years and years ago" was the last time we had a working KMail (KMail 1).
Kevin Kofler
Am 29.10.2015 um 12:33 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Kmail /Kontact has proven itself to be stable snappy reliable bit of highly complex code.
LOL hahahahaha! KMail 2 is anything except stable, snappy and/or reliable. Seeing those 3 adjectives used for the extremely buggy, glacially slow and unreliable KMail 2 / Akonadi makes me wonder whether we are even talking about the same piece of software!
wait - kmail - that was that one crap imap client which showed me a lot of mails multiple times and after delete the appearently duplicates the real mails where also deleted forever
that was after make a live USB stick and tried to save space by not install thunderbird and it's dependencies
BTW: my f**ng control bar freezed recently again on my Fedora 22 KDE workstation - so i wait until now some funny guy appears explaining me KDE5 is relieable and snappy too.....
oh, and 30 seconds after write the mail below the controlbar and desktop freezed again: no starters, no kmenu, no systray and no desktop reaction, just ALT+TAB the only option to siwtch windows, close them and CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE (which is now disabled as default because developers thought things are stable enough to not need that any longer and they are proben wrong every single day with F22/KDE)
Am 29.10.2015 um 12:48 schrieb Reindl Harald:
Am 29.10.2015 um 12:33 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Kmail /Kontact has proven itself to be stable snappy reliable bit of highly complex code.
LOL hahahahaha! KMail 2 is anything except stable, snappy and/or reliable. Seeing those 3 adjectives used for the extremely buggy, glacially slow and unreliable KMail 2 / Akonadi makes me wonder whether we are even talking about the same piece of software!
wait - kmail - that was that one crap imap client which showed me a lot of mails multiple times and after delete the appearently duplicates the real mails where also deleted forever
that was after make a live USB stick and tried to save space by not install thunderbird and it's dependencies
BTW: my f**ng control bar freezed recently again on my Fedora 22 KDE workstation - so i wait until now some funny guy appears explaining me KDE5 is relieable and snappy too.....
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:33 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
LOL hahahahaha! KMail 2 is anything except stable, snappy and/or reliable. Seeing those 3 adjectives used for the extremely buggy, glacially slow and unreliable KMail 2 / Akonadi makes me wonder whether we are even talking about the same piece of software!
Yeah, I gave up long ago and just use Gmail and the Chrome Checker Plus extension. Developers are no longer interested in working on desktop mail, client, contact apps. Most people now access that stuff on multiple platforms; and companies are now moving away from keeping that stuff in house and are outsourcing it to Google, Microsoft, etc. Keeping up with spam, virus, etc. is just a headache that no one really gets excited dealing with. It is labor intensive and mundane.
Kevin Kofler wrote:
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Kmail /Kontact has proven itself to be stable snappy reliable bit of highly complex code.
LOL hahahahaha! KMail 2 is anything except stable, snappy and/or reliable.
While I agree with Kevin, I must admit that KMail has become significantly better under Fedora-23beta. I haven't had the disabling error message "Retrieving Folder Contents" for at least a week.
But I still can't create top-level folders (except through Akonadi Console). Also, I gave up some time ago trying to work out if it is possible to create small mailing lists. Can this now be done?
Incidentally, is it (or should it be) a "bit of highly complex code"? I would have thought a mail client was a fairly standard application, after all they have been around for over 30 years.
On Thursday 29 October 2015 12:33:06 Kevin Kofler wrote:
Eli Wapniarski wrote:
Kmail /Kontact has proven itself to be stable snappy reliable bit of highly complex code.
LOL hahahahaha! KMail 2 is anything except stable, snappy and/or reliable. Seeing those 3 adjectives used for the extremely buggy, glacially slow and unreliable KMail 2 / Akonadi makes me wonder whether we are even talking about the same piece of software!
Personally, I wouldn't dream of using anything else.
That's only because the alternatives are even worse.
He writes about Kontact as though he was using the transitional versions that was released years and years ago.
"Years and years ago" was the last time we had a working KMail (KMail 1).
Kevin Kofler
I beg to differ.
I write this on kmail.
I use kjots to keep my thoughts organized
At work I connect to my zimbra calendar and todo lists via caldav. My personal contacts via cardav. The global address book via ldap.
I have absolutely no trouble with it.
I simply love it.
Oh... btw... I am still using kde 4.x so. I find the whole thing super stable.