I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora. They contribute to Fedora because they believe in our mission and want to help. Occasionally there are opportunities for them to participate in an ambassadorial fashion, like a public speaking event. They should be able to report on this to the rest of the Ambassadors using fedora-ambassadors-list.
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
In every other list, there are a core of people who work diligently on that kind of contribution. Artwork, Docs, Infrastructure, and others, all are in the same situation. And although people drop in there and discuss ideas, that doesn't harm the progress of those particular teams. Good ideas are picked up, discussed, and often implemented. Bad ones are shot down (politely, I hope), alternative suggestions are made, and work carries on.
I think more openness would serve this purpose well. However, I'm not going to ask for a change if someone can convince me that this kind of collaboration would be harmful to Ambassadors overall. What do you think, FAMSCo? Ambassadors?
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I think more openness would serve this purpose well. However, I'm not going to ask for a change if someone can convince me that this kind of collaboration would be harmful to Ambassadors overall. What do you think, FAMSCo? Ambassadors?
This one ambassador can't imagine any reason at all for this list to be private and completely supports changing it to be an open list at least to anyone who wants to go to the trouble to subscribe to it.
John
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora. They contribute to Fedora because they believe in our mission and want to help. Occasionally there are opportunities for them to participate in an ambassadorial fashion, like a public speaking event. They should be able to report on this to the rest of the Ambassadors using fedora-ambassadors-list.
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
In every other list, there are a core of people who work diligently on that kind of contribution. Artwork, Docs, Infrastructure, and others, all are in the same situation. And although people drop in there and discuss ideas, that doesn't harm the progress of those particular teams. Good ideas are picked up, discussed, and often implemented. Bad ones are shot down (politely, I hope), alternative suggestions are made, and work carries on.
I think more openness would serve this purpose well. However, I'm not going to ask for a change if someone can convince me that this kind of collaboration would be harmful to Ambassadors overall. What do you think, FAMSCo? Ambassadors?
-- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
iirc the thinking way back when was that there might be some strategic advantage to having the list restricted. In a traditional marketing or tradeshow organization I could understand that thought - I mean there are some corps that want to keep what kind of swag they are handing out secret. That said I can't recall an instance where it was ever an issue, or provided us an advantage. (but don't claim to know/remember everything). There's nothing that we do in secret - features are known, release schedules are known, events that we are going to are known - and even if they weren't the archive provides access instantaneously.
So +1 to opening the list up from a non-famsco member
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:05 AM, David Nalley david@gnsa.us wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora. They contribute to Fedora because they believe in our mission and want to help. Occasionally there are opportunities for them to participate in an ambassadorial fashion, like a public speaking event. They should be able to report on this to the rest of the Ambassadors using fedora-ambassadors-list.
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
In every other list, there are a core of people who work diligently on that kind of contribution. Artwork, Docs, Infrastructure, and others, all are in the same situation. And although people drop in there and discuss ideas, that doesn't harm the progress of those particular teams. Good ideas are picked up, discussed, and often implemented. Bad ones are shot down (politely, I hope), alternative suggestions are made, and work carries on.
I think more openness would serve this purpose well. However, I'm not going to ask for a change if someone can convince me that this kind of collaboration would be harmful to Ambassadors overall. What do you think, FAMSCo? Ambassadors?
-- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
iirc the thinking way back when was that there might be some strategic advantage to having the list restricted. In a traditional marketing or tradeshow organization I could understand that thought - I mean there are some corps that want to keep what kind of swag they are handing out secret. That said I can't recall an instance where it was ever an issue, or provided us an advantage. (but don't claim to know/remember everything). There's nothing that we do in secret - features are known, release schedules are known, events that we are going to are known - and even if they weren't the archive provides access instantaneously.
So +1 to opening the list up from a non-famsco member
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
+1 to Paul's suggestion. Open it up with the understanding that we may moderate due to spam and such. If you are legitimate, it shouldn't be an issue at all.
Cheers,
Clint
Hi,
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
I might have missed some steps because all I needed to become an ambassador was adding myself to a group, waiting to be accepted and then send a "hi it's me" message. Not really a lot of trouble... :/
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora.
To me, they are already ambassadors. They just don't have the title of Ambassador yet.
When I became an Ambassador, what I understood was that an Ambassador is "someone who promotes Fedora". So contributors who are promoting Fedora are ambassadors IMHO.
However, as it has already been said, The lists are already publicly viewable, so there can't be any restriction of access and I have nothing against someone subscribing to it without being an official Ambassador.
So, I have no objections to accepting subscribtions from non-Ambassadors, but I really don't see why those contributors you are talking about could not become Ambassadors.
Regards,
----------
Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) French Fedora Ambassador
---------- "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ~Benjamin Franklin
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 16:32 +0200, Mathieu Bridon (bochecha) wrote:
However, as it has already been said, The lists are already publicly viewable, so there can't be any restriction of access and I have nothing against someone subscribing to it without being an official Ambassador.
So, I have no objections to accepting subscribtions from non-Ambassadors, but I really don't see why those contributors you are talking about could not become Ambassadors.
I completely agree.
All of our things are public but, I think discussion may be, a little bit private, but if someone wants to join, he/she is welcome, but he/she must at least subscribe to the list.
Don't forget that Google index everything. ;-)
Luca
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 09:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Can't see a problem, they're doing an important part.
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora. They contribute to Fedora because they believe in our mission and want to help. Occasionally there are opportunities for them to participate in an ambassadorial fashion, like a public speaking event. They should be able to report on this to the rest of the Ambassadors using fedora-ambassadors-list.
+1
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
+1 Depending on how it's achieved.
In every other list, there are a core of people who work diligently on that kind of contribution. Artwork, Docs, Infrastructure, and others, all are in the same situation. And although people drop in there and discuss ideas, that doesn't harm the progress of those particular teams. Good ideas are picked up, discussed, and often implemented. Bad ones are shot down (politely, I hope), alternative suggestions are made, and work carries on.
I think more openness would serve this purpose well.
+1 Also applies to user concerns as per recent events.
Frank
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 09:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
I was shocked that it was still restricted access.
There is no way, at least in the US, that we can grow Ambassador interest without making it easy to lurk.
Lurkers can wait for what they want to do, then jump on that.
If someone has to be a doer before they can lurk, that is a big barrier.
Out here in California, the mode is to lurk for a while before doing.
I expect that when I send email to this list, I am also getting it in front of lurkers who have yet to step-up in California.
If the list is instead entirely of people who are already "doers" but doesn't have any "may doers", then it is much less valuable for me. I need to know that our calls to action in the West are reaching the widest audience of active and potential Ambassadors.
Other countries and states may have a different culture, but in Cali, people like to semi-commit before they fully commit. Being able to join and lurk on a list is a great semi-commitment.
Thus, a request to FAMSCo to remove that restriction on list subscribing.
- Karsten
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Actually the requirement to became a Fedora-Ambassadors list member is to be in the Ambassadors Account System group.
I think your argumentations are reasonable and personally I agree with those one: surely they could be used to start a great discussion over this proposal.
1 .The main problem we would face could be resumed in this question: why someone who isn't in the Ambassadors group could be in Ambassadors list and someone else can't? If we accept people that aren't member of Ambassadors list, other people could ask why they can't etc... The natural conclusion would be: open Ambassadors List or maintain it closed.
2. I know there are a lot of Fedora Contributors interested joining the discussion over Fedora Events, and it's not correct to let them out of the discussion. I think FAmSCo could discuss about open the list only to Account System members. But, just another problem: it would be necessary a way to simplify M-L administrators work, in fact Joerg (our list administrator) is working hard trying to manage new requests, checking who is in the AS group etc..
3. Personally I don't know how simple could be check all the requests, meanwhile we are work with new Ambassadors (a requirement to be an Ambassadors is write a message about themselves on the List: with this opening, would it be useful?).
A lot of time we discussed about this opportunity both here, and during the past FAmSCo, there too.
FAmSCo, meanwhile, will discuss about the possibility and will try to focus on the problems and the benefits from this proposal.
Personally I could say one thing: Everyone in Fedora Project is an Ambassador, Ambassadors Project itself it's aimed to simplify people work, giving them resources etc.
Starting from Sunday we will able to release an update in the new Memebership policy, and I can assure it will simplify the process to join the Project.
Hope to be more detailed soon
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 18:55 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Actually the requirement to became a Fedora-Ambassadors list member is to be in the Ambassadors Account System group.
I think your argumentations are reasonable and personally I agree with those one: surely they could be used to start a great discussion over this proposal.
1 .The main problem we would face could be resumed in this question: why someone who isn't in the Ambassadors group could be in Ambassadors list and someone else can't? If we accept people that aren't member of Ambassadors list, other people could ask why they can't etc... The natural conclusion would be: open Ambassadors List or maintain it closed.
- I know there are a lot of Fedora Contributors interested joining
the discussion over Fedora Events, and it's not correct to let them out of the discussion. I think FAmSCo could discuss about open the list only to Account System members. But, just another problem: it would be necessary a way to simplify M-L administrators work, in fact Joerg (our list administrator) is working hard trying to manage new requests, checking who is in the AS group etc..
- Personally I don't know how simple could be check all the requests,
meanwhile we are work with new Ambassadors (a requirement to be an Ambassadors is write a message about themselves on the List: with this opening, would it be useful?).
A lot of time we discussed about this opportunity both here, and during the past FAmSCo, there too.
FAmSCo, meanwhile, will discuss about the possibility and will try to focus on the problems and the benefits from this proposal.
Personally I could say one thing: Everyone in Fedora Project is an Ambassador, Ambassadors Project itself it's aimed to simplify people work, giving them resources etc.
Starting from Sunday we will able to release an update in the new Memebership policy, and I can assure it will simplify the process to join the Project.
Hope to be more detailed soon
I believe the fedora-ambassadors-list benefits far more by opening the list completely. This accomplishes several things:
* Reduces overhead for moderators like Joerg * Increases cross-project collaboration * As Karsten noted, promotes a wider labor pool for getting involved
Some additional recommendations that came from other people to me in private email:
* Remove "[Ambassadors]" from the subject line, since it's not needed.
* Add more moderators so that Joerg doesn't have to carry the whole load. There are others listed, but they are apparently inactive. Having more moderators is not usually harmful.
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I believe the fedora-ambassadors-list benefits far more by opening the list completely. This accomplishes several things:
- Reduces overhead for moderators like Joerg
- Increases cross-project collaboration
- As Karsten noted, promotes a wider labor pool for getting involved
Those sound reasonable, just give FAmSCo the time to take a Official position.
I'm sure we could be able to express it among with the New Members Policy Update on Sunday. Meanwhile, it would be helpful to learn from all of you the opinion behind this proposal.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 18:55 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Actually the requirement to became a Fedora-Ambassadors list member is to be in the Ambassadors Account System group.
I think your argumentations are reasonable and personally I agree with those one: surely they could be used to start a great discussion over this proposal.
1 .The main problem we would face could be resumed in this question: why someone who isn't in the Ambassadors group could be in Ambassadors list and someone else can't? If we accept people that aren't member of Ambassadors list, other people could ask why they can't etc... The natural conclusion would be: open Ambassadors List or maintain it closed.
- I know there are a lot of Fedora Contributors interested joining
the discussion over Fedora Events, and it's not correct to let them out of the discussion. I think FAmSCo could discuss about open the list only to Account System members. But, just another problem: it would be necessary a way to simplify M-L administrators work, in fact Joerg (our list administrator) is working hard trying to manage new requests, checking who is in the AS group etc..
- Personally I don't know how simple could be check all the requests,
meanwhile we are work with new Ambassadors (a requirement to be an Ambassadors is write a message about themselves on the List: with this opening, would it be useful?).
A lot of time we discussed about this opportunity both here, and during the past FAmSCo, there too.
FAmSCo, meanwhile, will discuss about the possibility and will try to focus on the problems and the benefits from this proposal.
Personally I could say one thing: Everyone in Fedora Project is an Ambassador, Ambassadors Project itself it's aimed to simplify people work, giving them resources etc.
Starting from Sunday we will able to release an update in the new Memebership policy, and I can assure it will simplify the process to join the Project.
Hope to be more detailed soon
I believe the fedora-ambassadors-list benefits far more by opening the list completely. This accomplishes several things:
- Reduces overhead for moderators like Joerg
- Increases cross-project collaboration
- As Karsten noted, promotes a wider labor pool for getting involved
Some additional recommendations that came from other people to me in private email:
Remove "[Ambassadors]" from the subject line, since it's not needed.
Add more moderators so that Joerg doesn't have to carry the whole
load. There are others listed, but they are apparently inactive. Having more moderators is not usually harmful.
-- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
+1 to opening the list. I think we could benefit from having others join in on discussions as well as possibly help out.
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 17:11 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
- Remove "[Ambassadors]" from the subject line, since it's not needed.
Yes, but put something in it's place maybe. I mean from a filtering POV, if you remove the *word, and user responds directly. Something can be inadvertently missed in a cluttered inbox.
Frank
Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 18:29 +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 17:11 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
- Remove "[Ambassadors]" from the subject line, since it's not needed.
Yes, but put something in it's place maybe. I mean from a filtering POV, if you remove the *word, and user responds directly. Something can be inadvertently missed in a cluttered inbox.
Filtering on a header, at worst the To: line, is a much better idea. The List-Id: or X-BeenThere: headers work well for me.
For most people though, putting '[Ambassadors]' in their email client window means after a reply or two you can't see the subject anymore, which is ugly and not useful. Look at the subject of this very post for example! :-)
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 17:07 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
Filtering on a header, at worst the To: line, is a much better idea. The List-Id: or X-BeenThere: headers work well for me.
X headers, something I never really trusted too easily faked.
For most people though, putting '[Ambassadors]' in their email client window means after a reply or two you can't see the subject anymore, which is ugly and not useful. Look at the subject of this very post for example! :-)
Subject looks fine [Famsco-list] [Ambassadors] once each (cross-post) Subject: Ambassadors list. As I stated, put in some word, doesn't have to be Ambassador per say, so if contact is made *off list. It will thread correctly by *Special Word*. It's the one thing missing from the user list.
Also if opening list, maybe use grey listing or other methods to reduce fraudulent, well spammers. 7 children, I don't need c!aL1$
But otherwise I agree in principle with ppl being able to put their 2c in. with some slight reservations, as scribed earlier.
Frank
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 05:07:52PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
Filtering on a header, at worst the To: line, is a much better idea. The List-Id: or X-BeenThere: headers work well for me.
For active filtering, yes, but I was specifically talking about that quick visual hint that lets a busy person glance at their inbox and quickly decide what needs to be read next. Most mail readers aren't going to display any of those headers prominently in your inbox index listing.
For most people though, putting '[Ambassadors]' in their email client window means after a reply or two you can't see the subject anymore, which is ugly and not useful. Look at the subject of this very post for example! :-)
Nonsense. Mailman will not add the tag a second time if it's already there. The current subject line is only due to cross-posting, which is discouraged on this list anyway. It would probably be ok to use a shorter tag, like "[Amb]" if the length of the current one is too bothersome for people.
Ok, ok, just wanted to point out that it's a touchy issue for many strongly opinionated people, as I think I've illustrated. :)
cheers, - Paul
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 05:11:10PM +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote:
- Remove "[Ambassadors]" from the subject line, since it's not needed.
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but bear in mind that this point is a matter of strongly-held "religious" beliefs for many people, both those in favor and those opposed.
Personally, I find subject tagging for mailing lists to be extremely valuable, as it allows me to visually filter the large number of new messages in my inbox and triage them quickly and efficiently.
cheers, - Paul
2008/9/12 Paul Stauffer paulds@bu.edu:
Personally, I find subject tagging for mailing lists to be extremely valuable, as it allows me to visually filter the large number of new messages in my inbox and triage them quickly and efficiently.
+1
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Francesco Ugolini fugolini@fedoraproject.org wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul Stauffer paulds@bu.edu:
Personally, I find subject tagging for mailing lists to be extremely valuable, as it allows me to visually filter the large number of new messages in my inbox and triage them quickly and efficiently.
+1
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
+1
Shambo Bose wrote:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Francesco Ugolini fugolini@fedoraproject.org wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul Stauffer paulds@bu.edu:
Personally, I find subject tagging for mailing lists to be extremely valuable, as it allows me to visually filter the large number of new messages in my inbox and triage them quickly and efficiently.
+1
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
+1
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
-1
filtering by To: and Cc: works like a charm for me and I'm doing this for over a year already. subject lines that are too long because of useless information just suck. IMHO.
On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Francesco Ugolini fugolini@fedoraproject.org wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul Stauffer paulds@bu.edu:
Personally, I find subject tagging for mailing lists to be extremely valuable, as it allows me to visually filter the large number of new messages in my inbox and triage them quickly and efficiently.
+1
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
+1 as well, though I could just as easily filter and tag by sender address instead of subject.
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 13:40 -0400, Brian Powell wrote:
+1 as well, though I could just as easily filter and tag by sender address instead of subject.
Not if sent directly to you, inlieu of list. There would be sender filter for direct contact, Subject for general.
Frank
Am Freitag, 12. September 2008 19:11:10 schrieb Paul W. Frields:
- Reduces overhead for moderators like Joerg
This is false, because Ambassador Group Membership requires Ambassador Mailinglist Membership i have to check every unsubscribe in FAS to be sure he is not a Ambassador. This will increase much.
- Increases cross-project collaboration
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007-March/msg00011.h...
- As Karsten noted, promotes a wider labor pool for getting involved
Paul, you are sure that you do not want to kill the Ambassadors Initiative? ;) btw. Opening Fedora Ambassadors List would end in a Second Marketing List!
CU Joerg
2008/9/12 JoergSimon jsimon@fedoraproject.org:
Am Freitag, 12. September 2008 19:11:10 schrieb Paul W. Frields:
- Reduces overhead for moderators like Joerg
This is false, because Ambassador Group Membership requires Ambassador Mailinglist Membership i have to check every unsubscribe in FAS to be sure he is not a Ambassador. This will increase much.
Unless it weren't even a requirement to belong to FAS, in which case you wouldn't have to do any of this.
- Increases cross-project collaboration
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007-March/msg00011.h...
- As Karsten noted, promotes a wider labor pool for getting involved
Paul, you are sure that you do not want to kill the Ambassadors Initiative? ;)
I'm sure none of us who feel opening up the list is a good idea wants to kill it, quite the opposite.
Is the fedora-art-list membership restricted in any way beyond requiring a random person with a valid email account somewhere to sign up for it? How does interacting with the community at large, not just the Fedora community, impact the art team in positive and negative ways?
I guess the issue is really what purpose do we have in mind for the list? How might the opportunities for broadening the conversation involving ambassadors be different with an open list? Other Fedora contributors could interact with us using it, they could also join the group and do that now. Not an overly high hurdle. Others outside the Fedora contributor community could also interact with us directly. That may well come with a cost. There might be some noise introduced to the list that it is insulated from now. There might also be opportunities to form new partnerships, interest new people in joining, learn from others who might contact us about similar issues that we are discussing at the time.
I see potential benefits to opening the list up to anyone. I also see some risk, but the risk seems limited to a bit of extra noise one learns to ignore or filter on many lists anyway.
btw.
Opening Fedora Ambassadors List would end in a Second Marketing List!
Why? The marketing list has a well defined purpose explained clearly on the sign-up page. Since the ambassador list has no such description of its purpose it could be anything now. We could easily at to that sign-up page an equally clear explanation of its purpose, once we decide or understand what that purpose is.
John
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 17:34 -0500, inode0 wrote:
Opening Fedora Ambassadors List would end in a Second Marketing List!
Why? The marketing list has a well defined purpose explained clearly on the sign-up page. Since the ambassador list has no such description of its purpose it could be anything now. We could easily at to that sign-up page an equally clear explanation of its purpose, once we decide or understand what that purpose is.
Chris Tyler and I recently helped focus the fedora-list so that it's easier to see what's on topic, and what's off topic. If discussions get out of hand, any community member can speak up and say, "Let's move this elsewhere." I offer that only as an example of making a list topical. The focus of the fedora-ambassadors-list, first and foremost, *must* be for the benefit of ambassadors, or else Joerg is right, it's not useful.
In my opinion, opening the list does not immediately lead to the list becoming useless, as long as FAMSCo establishes that focus and all the Ambassadors here keep things focused. Having said that, I agree that FAMSCo should decide this after hearing input from the Ambassadors, and I do not want to dictate any changes here. As far as I'm concerned, this is merely an option that the community and its leadership should consider thoughtfully.
Am Samstag, 13. September 2008 00:34:18 schrieb inode0:
This is false, because Ambassador Group Membership requires Ambassador Mailinglist Membership i have to check every unsubscribe in FAS to be sure he is not a Ambassador. This will increase much.
Unless it weren't even a requirement to belong to FAS, in which case you wouldn't have to do any of this.
in no case - do we want such a list. Discussions are for Marketing List? The Ambassadors List should be a coordination List - I would be pleased if you read my other Mail to that issue, here are my intentions in detail: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2008-September/msg00...
CU
2008/9/13 JoergSimon jsimon@fedoraproject.org:
Am Samstag, 13. September 2008 00:34:18 schrieb inode0:
This is false, because Ambassador Group Membership requires Ambassador Mailinglist Membership i have to check every unsubscribe in FAS to be sure he is not a Ambassador. This will increase much.
Unless it weren't even a requirement to belong to FAS, in which case you wouldn't have to do any of this.
in no case - do we want such a list. Discussions are for Marketing List? The Ambassadors List should be a coordination List - I would be pleased if you read my other Mail to that issue, here are my intentions in detail: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2008-September/msg00...
I have read the entire thread. I understand that you and others see the role of the ambassador list and perhaps the role of ambassadors in a more restrictive way than I do.
I see the role of ambassadors as one empowered to take initiatives to promote Fedora and I see the role of the ambassadors list as being the place for discussion of whatever the ambassadors would like to discuss with each other. And as a believer in open communication I don't mind at all if non-ambassadors participate in discussions and would be happy if barriers to such participation were lowered.
Once in a while it doesn't hurt us to take a second or third look at the way things work. It allows us to act on what we've learned and grow into more than we currently are. I don't think of this conversation as more than that, I don't think anyone is trying to upset the apple cart. Just asking for people to take a fresh look at the structures we have in place and think about them with fresh eyes. They may be what the group still wants them to be. But when they aren't in some eyes it is good to take a look again. And while it might seem tedious to explain why things are the way they are it does help new ambassadors understand them better. Thank you for doing that for all of us new ambassadors.
John
On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 10:28 -0500, inode0 wrote:
Just asking for people to take a fresh look at the structures we have in place and think about them with fresh eyes. They may be what the group still wants them to be. But when they aren't in some eyes it is good to take a look again. And while it might seem tedious to explain why things are the way they are it does help new ambassadors understand them better. Thank you for doing that for all of us new ambassadors.
I do agree that a fresh pair of eyes, can sometimes spot the missing piece..
Frank
2008/9/13 inode0 inode0@gmail.com:
I see the role of ambassadors as one empowered to take initiatives to promote Fedora and I see the role of the ambassadors list as being the place for discussion of whatever the ambassadors would like to discuss with each other. And as a believer in open communication I don't mind at all if non-ambassadors participate in discussions and would be happy if barriers to such participation were lowered.
I agree with you, meanwhile there are certain discussions that need to be taken in a place with Ambassadors, just because are only Ambassadors related:
- Budget: Event Owners and Members of Ambassadors Account System Group can ask for this and discuss about it. To plan this one is necessary the opinion of those people. How we could filter comment made by Ambassadors with the other made by list followers?
- Policy: if we make a vote to change some important policies (like in the past), How can we understand who has the right to vote or not?
I agree that during the event organization process is necessary the participation of all the community, but there are still closed issues that must discussed by Ambassadors, just because those are stuff for Ambassadors (like code is for Fedora Developers).
I know it could sound strange but we could find a different solution, maybe using Marketing list to discuss with the whole community (not only Fedora ones) about events. It's quite simple and one of the it would fit the marketing side of an Event.
While Ambassadors will work on Resources Management, New Ambassadors Training and Event Tracking, Marketing list would provide the right place to talk with the community about the Events, maybe getting feedbacks etc, that Ambassadors could use to better manage resources, without losing the goal of Ambassadors List and the project itself.
Hope it could be seen as a possibility
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 18:15 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/13 inode0 inode0@gmail.com:
I agree with you, meanwhile there are certain discussions that need to be taken in a place with Ambassadors, just because are only Ambassadors related:
I'm sure this could be accommodated somehow.
- Budget: Event Owners and Members of Ambassadors Account System Group
can ask for this and discuss about it. To plan this one is necessary the opinion of those people. How we could filter comment made by Ambassadors with the other made by list followers?
I can understand concern(s) here, is it not possible to create email aliases, eg. johndoe@ambassador.fedoraproject.org Could be filtered with a wildcard *@amb
but as someone has lives in a country awash with brown envelopes. The *budget per say should be open and frank (no relation) as per. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/SteeringCommittee/Budget
- Policy: if we make a vote to change some important policies (like in
the past), How can we understand who has the right to vote or not?
as above
I agree that during the event organization process is necessary the participation of all the community, but there are still closed issues that must discussed by Ambassadors, just because those are stuff for Ambassadors (like code is for Fedora Developers).
true, but all users(1) can make suggestions through the various methods, if x,y,z can be implemented in the code.
I know it could sound strange but we could find a different solution, maybe using Marketing list to discuss with the whole community (not only Fedora ones) about events. It's quite simple and one of the it would fit the marketing side of an Event.
I actually see some overlap between the two. Both are in the biz of promoting Fedora
Frank
(1) Some basic knowledge required.
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 18:15 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/13 inode0 inode0@gmail.com:
I agree with you, meanwhile there are certain discussions that need to be taken in a place with Ambassadors, just because are only Ambassadors related:
I'm sure this could be accommodated somehow.
- Budget: Event Owners and Members of Ambassadors Account System Group
can ask for this and discuss about it. To plan this one is necessary the opinion of those people. How we could filter comment made by Ambassadors with the other made by list followers?
I can understand concern(s) here, is it not possible to create email aliases, eg. johndoe@ambassador.fedoraproject.org Could be filtered with a wildcard *@amb
but as someone has lives in a country awash with brown envelopes. The *budget per say should be open and frank (no relation) as per. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/SteeringCommittee/Budget
- Policy: if we make a vote to change some important policies (like in
the past), How can we understand who has the right to vote or not?
as above
I agree that during the event organization process is necessary the participation of all the community, but there are still closed issues that must discussed by Ambassadors, just because those are stuff for Ambassadors (like code is for Fedora Developers).
true, but all users(1) can make suggestions through the various methods, if x,y,z can be implemented in the code.
I know it could sound strange but we could find a different solution, maybe using Marketing list to discuss with the whole community (not only Fedora ones) about events. It's quite simple and one of the it would fit the marketing side of an Event.
I actually see some overlap between the two. Both are in the biz of promoting Fedora
Frank
(1) Some basic knowledge required.
-- gpg id EB547226 Revoked Forgot Password :( aMSN: Frankly3D http://www.frankly3d.com
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
Per a discussion I just had with John Rose about the direction of this discussion. I quote from irc just to give context to what I suggest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:32 < herlo> wow, the mailing list is off-the-hook on this 'opening the ambassadors list' issue. Quite a read 10:32 < inode0> hehe, I think it has been a good discussion at least from my perspective 10:35 < herlo> inode0: yes, I just didn't think it would even be a discussion 10:35 < inode0> while the NA ambassadors are being fairly aggressive about rethinking organizational structures it is important for us to be willing to listen very carefully and learn all we can about the success of ambassadors in other areas and how the existing structures have worked well for assisting them in their success 10:35 < herlo> opening it up seemed like the right thing to do 10:36 < herlo> but I like the arguments coming from the other side too, albeit I mostly disagree with them 10:36 < herlo> inode0: agreed 10:37 < inode0> there are two needs, one mostly administrative and that is the current role of f-a-l 10:37 < inode0> the other is more community oriented and it seems lacking now but perhaps needs a different place 10:39 < herlo> well, maybe there should be a fedora-community-list to which all ambassadors should subscribe 10:39 < herlo> which is kind of what I am seeing be argued although I didn't see anyone specifically say that :) 10:40 < inode0> most suggestions have been for taking the discussion to f-m-l but I'm sure there will be objections to that in the end when those discussions seem not appropriate to their mission 10:41 < inode0> I like the idea of f-c-l or something like that but there is danger of list sprawl too 10:42 < inode0> I don't really mind higher traffic on any of the lists, more discussion means more ideas 10:45 < herlo> well, I don't think the argument (even though paul suggested it) to open up the f-a-l will win. The only real compromise is to say okay, that's fine let's keep this as a planning list and if a contributor in the community wants to suggest something, lets make an alternate list or a place for them to do so 10:45 < inode0> I think you are right 10:46 < herlo> from my pov, this discussion will go on and on because people like to dig into the nitty gritty details 10:46 < herlo> I'm one who doesn't want to spend weeks and months discussing something into the ground. I'm a man of action and just want to accomplish the purpose for which I set out, helping people learn and contribute to fedora 10:47 < herlo> so the f-c-l seems like the best option available. 10:47 < herlo> maybe there's something else someone could suggest?? 10:47 * herlo thinks he'll take this stuff here and post it to that discussion now 10:47 <inode0> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors should have something I think about how to contact us and f-c-l would be fine with me as a place
I hope nobody is offended by any of the comments above, but it brings out a couple ideas which I think could help us to accomplish the original thought brought forward by Paul. The theory is that we need a place for the community, anyone who's a fedora contributor (if I'm wrong here correct me), to be able to sign up to a list and suggest an idea to help promote and/or grow Fedora in some way.
The main issue here is whether the f-a-l is the right place to have this happen. And while I agree with opening it up, I see good arguments for not doing so and thus, brings me to a point where I'd like to solve the problem as I see it. It seems there is an issue with either marketing and/or ambassadors lists not being the the perfect place for contributors to make suggestions and what not.
To this end, I suggest we create a list to which ambassadors/marketing should sign up and others *can* sign up. The list will essentially provide what Paul would like to see, but won't become off-topic discussions in the marketing/ambassadors lists.
Thoughts on this? I'm still not sure its a perfect solution, but I believe it leads to a better solution than to discuss filtering or anything else. If you have suggestions along these lines, please make them. If you think I'm completely mistaken, tell me.
Thanks for listening to my opinions.
Cheers,
Clint
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:09:01AM -0600, Clint Savage wrote:
original thought brought forward by Paul. The theory is that we need a place for the community, anyone who's a fedora contributor (if I'm wrong here correct me), to be able to sign up to a list and suggest an idea to help promote and/or grow Fedora in some way.
In what way is the marketing list not serving this need already? It's an open list, and its entire purpose is discussion related to promoting and/or growing Fedora.
- Paul
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Paul Stauffer paulds@bu.edu wrote:
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:09:01AM -0600, Clint Savage wrote:
original thought brought forward by Paul. The theory is that we need a place for the community, anyone who's a fedora contributor (if I'm wrong here correct me), to be able to sign up to a list and suggest an idea to help promote and/or grow Fedora in some way.
In what way is the marketing list not serving this need already? It's an open list, and its entire purpose is discussion related to promoting and/or growing Fedora.
From the sign-up page for f-m-l:
"The purpose of this list is planning for the long-term marketing strategy of the Fedora Project."
That is far more restricted than what we are talking about.
And it further direct folks to the ambassadors group with:
"If you are interested in working on the day-to-day marketing tactics of Fedora, participating in planning of events, or otherwise spreading Fedora 'on the ground', see the Fedora Ambassadors program."
However there really isn't any way to discuss things with that group without joining it first.
John
On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 12:48 -0500, inode0 wrote:
"If you are interested in working on the day-to-day marketing tactics of Fedora, participating in planning of events, or otherwise spreading Fedora 'on the ground', see the Fedora Ambassadors program."
However there really isn't any way to discuss things with that group without joining it first.
Just a thought, and not being a web-designer, "Suggestion-Box" open to all. akin to the store idea. with enough volunteers, around the globe t\z's to remove ant spam.
With the rest can be forwarded to suitable parties.
Frank
2008/9/13 Clint Savage herlo1@gmail.com:
To this end, I suggest we create a list to which ambassadors/marketing should sign up and others *can* sign up. The list will essentially provide what Paul would like to see, but won't become off-topic discussions in the marketing/ambassadors lists.
Yeah, it could work!
Wating, me too, for feedbacks on such proposal
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Francesco Ugolini fugolini@fedoraproject.org wrote:
2008/9/13 inode0 inode0@gmail.com:
I see the role of ambassadors as one empowered to take initiatives to promote Fedora and I see the role of the ambassadors list as being the place for discussion of whatever the ambassadors would like to discuss with each other. And as a believer in open communication I don't mind at all if non-ambassadors participate in discussions and would be happy if barriers to such participation were lowered.
I agree with you, meanwhile there are certain discussions that need to be taken in a place with Ambassadors, just because are only Ambassadors related:
Let me preface by saying I understand the distinction between the EMEA and NA perception of Ambassadors - there is a difference. And honestly EMEA has been more successful so perhaps we should look at it in that light.
- Budget: Event Owners and Members of Ambassadors Account System Group
can ask for this and discuss about it. To plan this one is necessary the opinion of those people. How we could filter comment made by Ambassadors with the other made by list followers?
One of the unique things about F/LOSS is that we don't care who you are - we don't care if you are a teenager or someone with a PhD in CompSci - what matters is the quality of your ideas and the benefit of you work. Why would we want to filter out potentially good ideas because they aren't "one of us". At the same time I understand that being an Ambassador appears to be highly regarded, particularly in the EMEA - and perhaps we in NA don't value it enough. I think the line of thinking is that "If anyone can do it, what's the point".
- Policy: if we make a vote to change some important policies (like in
the past), How can we understand who has the right to vote or not?
I'd think votes could be handled by FAS-backed voting system.
I agree that during the event organization process is necessary the participation of all the community, but there are still closed issues that must discussed by Ambassadors, just because those are stuff for Ambassadors (like code is for Fedora Developers).
but fedora-devel isn't restricted only to "sponsored packagers"
I know it could sound strange but we could find a different solution, maybe using Marketing list to discuss with the whole community (not only Fedora ones) about events. It's quite simple and one of the it would fit the marketing side of an Event.
Aside from not wanting to dilute the status of being an ambassador - what do we lose by inviting others in?
While Ambassadors will work on Resources Management, New Ambassadors Training and Event Tracking, Marketing list would provide the right place to talk with the community about the Events, maybe getting feedbacks etc, that Ambassadors could use to better manage resources, without losing the goal of Ambassadors List and the project itself.
What goals do we miss out on??
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008, David Nalley wrote:
Let me preface by saying I understand the distinction between the EMEA and NA perception of Ambassadors - there is a difference. And honestly EMEA has been more successful so perhaps we should look at it in that light.
I don't understand what this particular point has to do with the larger thread. Our collective goal is to make sure Ambassadors in all parts of the world are successful. That success model will not *necessarily* look the same everywhere, nor is it a competition.
--Max
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008, inode0 wrote:
I see the role of ambassadors as one empowered to take initiatives to promote Fedora and I see the role of the ambassadors list as being the place for discussion of whatever the ambassadors would like to discuss with each other. And as a believer in open communication I don't mind at all if non-ambassadors participate in discussions and would be happy if barriers to such participation were lowered.
Ambassadors == tactical, day to day operations and planning, event organizing, resources, budget, etc.
Marketing == strategy, that is implemented by Ambassadors or other groups.
List traffic needs to be separated more or less based on this. The manner in which that separation is done, I leave to others.
--Max
Paul W. Frields schrieb:
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 18:55 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
My question as a normal Ambassador is "why"? If we do so, then I please want also the Mails from the Contributors List, from the board and internals also ;-) If a Contributor wants to be an Ambassodor its Ok, but with all "policys" there are. If I want also to be a Contributor or a maintainer or whatever I also have "something to do for it".
Actually the requirement to became a Fedora-Ambassadors list member is to be in the Ambassadors Account System group.
I think your argumentations are reasonable and personally I agree with those one: surely they could be used to start a great discussion over this proposal.
1 .The main problem we would face could be resumed in this question: why someone who isn't in the Ambassadors group could be in Ambassadors list and someone else can't? If we accept people that aren't member of Ambassadors list, other people could ask why they can't etc... The natural conclusion would be: open Ambassadors List or maintain it closed.
If open, then ALL open. But I did not think that will be good longtime.
- I know there are a lot of Fedora Contributors interested joining
the discussion over Fedora Events, and it's not correct to let them out of the discussion. I think FAmSCo could discuss about open the list only to Account System members. But, just another problem: it would be necessary a way to simplify M-L administrators work, in fact Joerg (our list administrator) is working hard trying to manage new requests, checking who is in the AS group etc..
Ack on working hard. But with more help it will be easier I think.
Personally I could say one thing: Everyone in Fedora Project is an Ambassador, Ambassadors Project itself it's aimed to simplify people work, giving them resources etc.
Starting from Sunday we will able to release an update in the new Memebership policy, and I can assure it will simplify the process to join the Project.
So, if somebody gets a FAS Account somebody can also join the Ambassadors... or other SIGs or so...
I believe the fedora-ambassadors-list benefits far more by opening the list completely. This accomplishes several things:
- Reduces overhead for moderators like Joerg
- Increases cross-project collaboration
- As Karsten noted, promotes a wider labor pool for getting involved
I do not see the point also at this description. If we want a small amount of structures to get better quality we have to do some Administrative stuff. If this means some people like Joerg and others have work to do my personal thought is "hell, thanks this man for doing such increadible work". Mailinglists are a Tool, a piece of software to help for one area or one project. cross-projects can be build for small projects as a wikipage or an irc-channel. The postings of a list are on the web (e.g. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2008-September/msg00... ) so, everybody - also the normal user - can contact the author and can make comments. He (or she) can also ask him to send his request to the list. My personal opinion is that I see at this time no reason to open a list at this way. But there may be some more reasons i did not get so far...
Some additional recommendations that came from other people to me in private email:
- Remove "[Ambassadors]" from the subject line, since it's not needed.
I need it ;-) I sort so wich I when read.
- Add more moderators so that Joerg doesn't have to carry the whole
load. There are others listed, but they are apparently inactive. Having more moderators is not usually harmful.
THATS a good idea I think.
best regards Henrik
Hi Paul,
i want also share my opinion and because i am not half as smart as the most of the others here on the list i will quote from some Mails from past discussions - but notice complete out of their context ;) and i am not a native speaker - i hope i can transport what i want to say.
Am Freitag, 12. September 2008 15:25:58 schrieb Paul W. Frields:
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora. They contribute to Fedora because they believe in our mission and want to help.
You are complete right, every contributor is also a representative!
Occasionally there are opportunities for them to participate in an ambassadorial fashion, like a public speaking event.
This has nothing to do with the Ambassador Mailing List! If someone wears a ambassadorial fashion he should be in the Ambassadors Group in FAS and know his mission - because there are sometimes FedoraPeople who struggle with other Distros - for a Fedora Ambassador - this is a no go! If i am wrong - ok, then we do not need the AmbassadorGroup, because every Contributor is a Ambassador, right?
They should be able to report on this to the rest of the Ambassadors using fedora-ambassadors-list.
This Event Reports can be placed on the Planet and the Marketing List. Every Ambassador has to subscribe the Marketing List as well!
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
The Archives are open for Public Reading!
In every other list, there are a core of people who work diligently on that kind of contribution. Artwork, Docs, Infrastructure, and others, all are in the same situation. And although people drop in there and discuss ideas, that doesn't harm the progress of those particular teams. Good ideas are picked up, discussed, and often implemented. Bad ones are shot down (politely, I hope), alternative suggestions are made, and work carries on. I think more openness would serve this purpose well. However, I'm not going to ask for a change if someone can convince me that this kind of collaboration would be harmful to Ambassadors overall. What do you think, FAMSCo? Ambassadors?
As you know there is the Marketing List and Karsten Wade has point out the function of that lists very good during the merging discussion! <quote> Fedora *must* have a list where pure, strategic marketing discussions can occur. This is a place where people who are otherwise very busy making other parts of Fedora succeed, can come to discuss some important ideas related to growing Fedora. Where people who are marketing professionals and who want to work with open marketing can come to be involved. This should be fedora-marketing-list.
OTOH, there *must* be a list where tactical, day-to-day activities that enhance and grow Fedora can be discussed. This is where the various people who are active in promoting Fedora discuss specifics of events, activities, and other marketing programs. This should be fedora-ambassadors-list. from https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2007-February/msg00034... </quote>
The Ambassador List should be a list with low noise, low traffic for important stuff between the People who working on the certain Events and don´t have the time to discuss the same topics again and again. Right now we working on change the Introduction Requirement for new Ambassadors to lower the "Welcome" noise. If the world can post to that list i am concernd that we spend more time with explaining people the Ambassador Rules - than with organising our work.
Chitlesh expressed it very well also during the Merging discussion - <quote> Ok, now let's ask do we need fedora ambassador project after all ? Fedora Ambassadors will lose their fedora ambassador status. (if every Person in the World can post to the List and everyone can wear ambassadorial fashion? why not? - added jsimon)
This implies we(the fedora project) are losing something which is unique to fedora(and all other OSS Projects i know - added jsimon). This uniqueness has unknowingly solved many local fedora problems. Since, Fedora Ambassador Project what else it does, it: 1- makes every local marketing agent of fedora to meet other local marketing agents of that particular country. 2- makes all local marketing agents of a particular country talk/discuss with other local marketing agents of different countries. (IRC meetings at #fedora-mktg and fedora ambassador mailing list, Fedora Ambassadors Day) 3- makes all these local marketing agents solve problem together FOR the SOLE fedora interest.(Fedora Ambassadors Day, FUDCons)
You see now that local marketing agents are what we call Fedora Ambassadors. With this Fedora Ambassador Infrastructure, we are NOT creating internal fights between Fedora Ambassadors of a particular country for an event for example.
While in the Fedora World, we inform the fedora ambassador list for the event preparation. And generally work on that ML rather than local MLs. I hope you see the "Upstream benefit" that Fedora keeps on saying. We had great local fedora communities popping up from that _Fedora Ambassador Infrastructure_: French, German, Indian, Brazillian. We are seeing right now brilliant Belgium Fedora Ambassadors in action.
Fedora Ambassador Project brings QUALITY to the Fedora Marketing. Fedora Marketing Project brings new Fedora Ambassadors in. from https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2007-February/msg00015... </quote>
-1 for open the Mailing List
On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I think more openness would serve this purpose well. However, I'm not going to ask for a change if someone can convince me that this kind of collaboration would be harmful to Ambassadors overall. What do you think, FAMSCo? Ambassadors?
I dislike the idea of an open fedora-ambassadors-list. I'm sorry to say that, but there's already to much non-ambassadors stuff on the list by people mixing up marketing and ambassadors IMHO. So if an opening of this list really should happen, I will unsubscribe myself immediately. Sorry.
If everybody is allowed to write on the list, being a contributor is the same as being an ambassador then. And then we don't need this list at all. That's a simple decision for me...
Greetings, Robert
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
I think all your argumentations are reasonable as I just said in my previous messages. I have bother respect and consideration for you and I think the reason behind this proposal are not unjustified.
There is meanwhile a big problem: Ambassadors is a project out-of-the-scheme, just because we don't discuss about development or everything connected with a direct result, we discuss about people that have to talk with other people. In that way we provide Ambassadors the tools they need to be able to accomplish their duties.
So, it could seem off-topic and maybe it is, but I need it to go ahead.
Mailing list is one of the most important tool that we have, it has the same role of CVS for a programmer or a documentation editor. It allow us to let the other ambassadors know about the efforts of each other, and could help people not to repeat the work. Not only. It is our first resource to train new Ambassadors, just see how many people ask "What can I do?" and so on. Those seem stupid questions but they make clear that Ambassadors list is the first place to learn what to do.
What could mean open the Ambassadors List?
As I've just said, I would pay to have key-fedora-contributors in Ambassadors project, I'm sure if you will ask in the list you'll get the same answer. Meanwhile as FAmSCo member I have to guarantee the Ambassadors Project "ecosystem" from the "desertification" that a mass opening of the list could cause.
I'm not talking about trusted people like key-fedora-contributors, I'm talking about a lot of people that will join the list only because they learn something somewhere, maybe without knowing what is really Ambassadors Project.
Yes, I agree with you if you tell me that it could be the worst case, but I'm sure it could explain the concerns expressed by experienced people like Joerg and Robert.
As FAmSCo we have to guarantee that Ambassadors will have the total control of one of their most important tool.
Just let me do an example taken from another Fedora project: I'm the maintainer of a package, I'm the only one with the CVS access to that package, if someone else will access the package and will change it, I surely will fill disappointed and I'll get frustrated.
I'm not a packager, but I could understand his feelings if it will happen.
At the end let me ask everyone to think on yourself about your experience in the Ambassadors project, particularly with Fedora Ambassadors list. Now, imagine if we will open this one, I'm sure only the minority of the people that will join it will know the important role of Ambassadors List.
I, personally, will agree if someone want to simplify the process to become an Ambassador (*), but as part of this project for more than 2 years I will be a liar if I'll not move the previous doubts and concerns.
Could it be a benefit? You have to give me the answer.
Best regards
Francesco Ugolini
"If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others?" Voltaire
(*) FAmSCo is just working on a more easy process to became Ambassadors.
2008/9/13 Francesco Ugolini fugolini@fedoraproject.org:
I think all your argumentations are reasonable as I just said in my previous messages. I have bother respect and consideration for you and I think the reason behind this proposal are not unjustified.
I'm Sorry I wanted to say both, not bother.
Once again I apologize for this big/serious mistake.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 01:24 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/13 Francesco Ugolini fugolini@fedoraproject.org:
I think all your argumentations are reasonable as I just said in my previous messages. I have bother respect and consideration for you and I think the reason behind this proposal are not unjustified.
I'm Sorry I wanted to say both, not bother.
Once again I apologize for this big/serious mistake.
Not serious, and no worries Francesco. I understood your meaning! :-)
I hope people will consider how, for example, packagers have the choice to open up their package access to all packagers, as I and many others do. If I can't spring into action to fix a package for some reason, any other packager can do it in my place.
Thank you for your considerate email and time thinking about this issue. You can rest assured that I'll respect the decision of FAMSCo and the Ambassadors community.
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
Could it be a benefit? You have to give me the answer.
If I were a member of FAMSCo, here is how I would approach my job:
(1) Are ambassadors worldwide finding it relatively easy to organize and event, put on the event, and then report the results of the event? Solicit feedback often, hold people accountable for event reports and the "process" around budgeting, but also be flexible and alter the process when the general Ambassador community speaks.
(2) GOTO (1).
(3) On other questions of policy, like mailing lists, listen to the opinions of everyone, and then make what FAMSCo thinks is the best decision, explain why in public, and move on. If people don't like the decisions or leadership of FAMSCo, they will make that clear when the next election cycle comes. :) It is similar to the Fedora Board -- they listen to the arguments and discussions, but ultimately they make the calls on what they think is best. Also, if the Fedora Board disagrees with a decision that FAMSCo is making, I am sure that someone from the Board will weigh in and try to encourage FAMSCo to think/discuss further.
(4) Metrics. How are we growing worldwide. How do we encourage our best Ambassadors to further grow Fedora in their regions? How do we continue to convert new people that we meet at events and through Ambassadors into contributors. How do we *measure* this?
Personally, I think FAMSCo is doing a good job of growing Ambassadors, giving some formal process to the way events are organized, and making sure that people all over the world are involved. It is a difficult job, and FAMSCo's leadership, like almost all of us, is run by volunteers. We're all on the same team, and let's continue to work together.
--Max
2008/9/18 Max Spevack mspevack@redhat.com:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
Could it be a benefit? You have to give me the answer.
If I were a member of FAMSCo, here is how I would approach my job:
(1) Are ambassadors worldwide finding it relatively easy to organize and event, put on the event, and then report the results of the event? Solicit feedback often, hold people accountable for event reports and the "process" around budgeting, but also be flexible and alter the process when the general Ambassador community speaks.
(2) GOTO (1).
(3) On other questions of policy, like mailing lists, listen to the opinions of everyone, and then make what FAMSCo thinks is the best decision, explain why in public, and move on. If people don't like the decisions or leadership of FAMSCo, they will make that clear when the next election cycle comes. :) It is similar to the Fedora Board -- they listen to the arguments and discussions, but ultimately they make the calls on what they think is best. Also, if the Fedora Board disagrees with a decision that FAMSCo is making, I am sure that someone from the Board will weigh in and try to encourage FAMSCo to think/discuss further.
(4) Metrics. How are we growing worldwide. How do we encourage our best Ambassadors to further grow Fedora in their regions? How do we continue to convert new people that we meet at events and through Ambassadors into contributors. How do we *measure* this?
Personally, I think FAMSCo is doing a good job of growing Ambassadors, giving some formal process to the way events are organized, and making sure that people all over the world are involved. It is a difficult job, and FAMSCo's leadership, like almost all of us, is run by volunteers. We're all on the same team, and let's continue to work together.
--Max
First of all thank you for all the great suggestions about this issue and about everything concerning managing and leading a community.
FAmSCo will work over those points: I'm sure we are facing a daily improvement in our jobs thanks to the Ambassadors feedback and the community in general ones. (and sure yours)
I hope the (going-to-be-definitive) decision FAmSCo is going to take will be what people are expecting from us. Moreover I personally asked to pause the discussion until FAD NA, I hope everyone understand the importance to make people meet to discuss this issue: after that date, if we will receive some big reasons against FAmSCo position, we will surely be able to adapt this to your needs. Meanwhile EMEA community has just expressed, with a reasonable majority, their doubts on some of the options (open list etc).
We hope everyone know we are working to keep community up and running, and to guarantee a constant, both in quality and quantity, growth. We are a open community, with open processes: I hope everything we are doing is clear.
Best regards
Francesco Ugolini
+ 1 Max Spevack
I have a short proposal to the FAMSCo: ---------------------------------------------------------
Archives are like a library: but it should have two parts: a) Public b) Reserve
a) Public: Basic Informations, Event reports and nessesary tools b) Reserve: Budget issue, Related security issue, and Planning
Public part should always be open to the whole Fedora community. But, reserve part should have proper access only to those who really needs it.
------------------------EOF-------------------------
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Max Spevack mspevack@redhat.com wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
Could it be a benefit? You have to give me the answer.
If I were a member of FAMSCo, here is how I would approach my job:
(1) Are ambassadors worldwide finding it relatively easy to organize and event, put on the event, and then report the results of the event? Solicit feedback often, hold people accountable for event reports and the "process" around budgeting, but also be flexible and alter the process when the general Ambassador community speaks.
(2) GOTO (1).
(3) On other questions of policy, like mailing lists, listen to the opinions of everyone, and then make what FAMSCo thinks is the best decision, explain why in public, and move on. If people don't like the decisions or leadership of FAMSCo, they will make that clear when the next election cycle comes. :) It is similar to the Fedora Board -- they listen to the arguments and discussions, but ultimately they make the calls on what they think is best. Also, if the Fedora Board disagrees with a decision that FAMSCo is making, I am sure that someone from the Board will weigh in and try to encourage FAMSCo to think/discuss further.
(4) Metrics. How are we growing worldwide. How do we encourage our best Ambassadors to further grow Fedora in their regions? How do we continue to convert new people that we meet at events and through Ambassadors into contributors. How do we *measure* this?
Personally, I think FAMSCo is doing a good job of growing Ambassadors, giving some formal process to the way events are organized, and making sure that people all over the world are involved. It is a difficult job, and FAMSCo's leadership, like almost all of us, is run by volunteers. We're all on the same team, and let's continue to work together.
--Max
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
2008/9/18 Rashadul Islam irashadul@gmail.com:
- 1 Max Spevack
I have a short proposal to the FAMSCo:
Archives are like a library: but it should have two parts: a) Public b) Reserve
a) Public: Basic Informations, Event reports and nessesary tools b) Reserve: Budget issue, Related security issue, and Planning
I don't know if the software that runs Ambs M-L allow this.
BTW my personal philosophy is keep everything simple.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields :
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
Hello there,
Ever since the Fedora Ambassador Project was created way back in 2005, this type of discussion comes up every 6/7 months.
I have said it before (several times since the Fedora Ambassador Project was created) and JoergSimon already posted a link to that.
However please DO NO OPEN THE ARCHIVES OF THIS LIST to public.
A short summary: The Fedora Ambassador Project is a sub project of the Fedora Marketing Project and everyone will agree with that. Fedora Marketing List is open to public, but Fedora Ambassador project's does not. All Ambassadors _must_ be subscribed to the Marketing mailing list.
Coming back to Paul Frield's words:
we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
The collaboration between ambassadors and the rest of the project _IS_ and _should be_ via the marketing mailing list and not ambassador mailing list.
When the ambassador project was initiated, the ambassador mailing list was intented to serve as a ground to discuss critical issues (freely between Fedora Ambassadors) such as: - budget expenses on a particular event - frank discussions (but between ambassadors ONLY) about difficulties they had during events. Thus next time, other fedora ambassadors don't fall into the same problems. example: if for a particular event ambassadors had a very bad experience with a hotel, he/she can share his/her views here. If the list is opened, this type of discussion will implicate bad publicity for the hotel. We are ambassadors and not hotel-star-tagger. Thus a private ML protects our views. -............(there are many critical issues, that you are already aware of)
Fedora Ambassadors are not those who decide the faith/roadmap(FAB does) of the whole Fedora Project. Thus to the outside world, this mailing list is not important.
A REQUEST TO ALL AMBASSADORS:
The Fedora Ambassador Project had many difficulties in the past. Every time we all worked together to solve those difficulties. We are all proud of the success of our improvements. The latter is based on our 3 years experience we have.
Please next time before deciding something about the Fedora Ambassadors Project's faith, DO NOT destroy what we have constructed during the last past years.
Being a Fedora Ambassador is being part of the exciting Fedora Marketing family. During many events we have proved to the rest of the world we are the most solid and proffesional marketing team.Believe me or not, the closed Fedora Ambassador ML has a lot to contribute to that.
Fedora Marketing Mailing List:
As for more inter-projects collaboration, I believe everyone should make an effort to use the Fedora Marketing List instead of using it as a news-posting media AND leave Fedora Ambassador ML closed for critical issues.
I don't believe that opening ambassador project ML will bring more good than bad things to it. I still stress of the word QUALITY! If you followed our last big events, you would have seen that quality in promoting the Fedora Project.
Making the ambassador subscription process easier is not by opening the ambassador mailing list, but rather every ambassador should work for that.
Vote: -1 : I support JoergSimon's arguments and do not vote blindly.
Kind regards, Chitlesh
yeah its good idea.
Avinash Singh > Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:27:24 +0200> From: chitlesh.goorah@gmail.com> To: fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com> Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] Ambassadors list> > 2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields :> > Having open archives is good because it means people can read> > discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or> > let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the> > conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the> > project.> > Hello there,> > Ever since the Fedora Ambassador Project was created way back in 2005,> this type of discussion comes up every 6/7 months.> > I have said it before (several times since the Fedora Ambassador> Project was created) and JoergSimon already posted a link to that.> > However please DO NO OPEN THE ARCHIVES OF THIS LIST to public.> > A short summary:> The Fedora Ambassador Project is a sub project of the Fedora Marketing> Project and everyone will agree with that. Fedora Marketing List is> open to public, but Fedora Ambassador project's does not. All> Ambassadors _must_ be subscribed to the Marketing mailing list.> > Coming back to Paul Frield's words:> > we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.> > The collaboration between ambassadors and the rest of the project _IS_> and _should be_ via the marketing mailing list and not ambassador> mailing list.> > When the ambassador project was initiated, the ambassador mailing list> was intented to serve as a ground to discuss critical issues (freely> between Fedora Ambassadors) such as:> - budget expenses on a particular event> - frank discussions (but between ambassadors ONLY) about difficulties> they had during events. Thus next time, other fedora ambassadors don't> fall into the same problems.> example: if for a particular event ambassadors had a very bad> experience with a hotel, he/she can share his/her views here. If the> list is opened, this type of discussion will implicate bad publicity> for the hotel. We are ambassadors and not hotel-star-tagger. Thus a> private ML protects our views.> -............(there are many critical issues, that you are already aware of)> > Fedora Ambassadors are not those who decide the faith/roadmap(FAB> does) of the whole Fedora Project. Thus to the outside world, this> mailing list is not important.> > A REQUEST TO ALL AMBASSADORS:> > The Fedora Ambassador Project had many difficulties in the past. Every> time we all worked together to solve those difficulties. We are all> proud of the success of our improvements. The latter is based on our 3> years experience we have.> > Please next time before deciding something about the Fedora> Ambassadors Project's faith, DO NOT destroy what we have constructed> during the last past years.> > Being a Fedora Ambassador is being part of the exciting Fedora> Marketing family. During many events we have proved to the rest of the> world we are the most solid and proffesional marketing team.Believe me> or not, the closed Fedora Ambassador ML has a lot to contribute to> that.> > Fedora Marketing Mailing List:> > As for more inter-projects collaboration, I believe everyone should> make an effort to use the Fedora Marketing List instead of using it as> a news-posting media AND leave Fedora Ambassador ML closed for> critical issues.> > I don't believe that opening ambassador project ML will bring more> good than bad things to it. I still stress of the word QUALITY! If you> followed our last big events, you would have seen that quality in> promoting the Fedora Project.> > Making the ambassador subscription process easier is not by opening> the ambassador mailing list, but rather every ambassador should work> for that.> > Vote: -1 : I support JoergSimon's arguments and do not vote blindly.> > Kind regards,> Chitlesh> > --> Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list> Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list _________________________________________________________________ Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings
+10 from my perspective
And sorry, why we need to discuss this topic "every year"?
Regards
Gerold
PS.: all points are discussed and argued more than once
Am Sonntag, den 14.09.2008, 10:27 +0200 schrieb Chitlesh GOORAH:
2008/9/12 Paul W. Frields :
Having open archives is good because it means people can read discussions after the fact. But if people can't read in real time, or let Ambassadors know about opportunities and then participate in the conversation, we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
Hello there,
Ever since the Fedora Ambassador Project was created way back in 2005, this type of discussion comes up every 6/7 months.
I have said it before (several times since the Fedora Ambassador Project was created) and JoergSimon already posted a link to that.
However please DO NO OPEN THE ARCHIVES OF THIS LIST to public.
A short summary: The Fedora Ambassador Project is a sub project of the Fedora Marketing Project and everyone will agree with that. Fedora Marketing List is open to public, but Fedora Ambassador project's does not. All Ambassadors _must_ be subscribed to the Marketing mailing list.
Coming back to Paul Frield's words:
we're not getting real collaboration with the rest of the project.
The collaboration between ambassadors and the rest of the project _IS_ and _should be_ via the marketing mailing list and not ambassador mailing list.
When the ambassador project was initiated, the ambassador mailing list was intented to serve as a ground to discuss critical issues (freely between Fedora Ambassadors) such as:
- budget expenses on a particular event
- frank discussions (but between ambassadors ONLY) about difficulties
they had during events. Thus next time, other fedora ambassadors don't fall into the same problems. example: if for a particular event ambassadors had a very bad experience with a hotel, he/she can share his/her views here. If the list is opened, this type of discussion will implicate bad publicity for the hotel. We are ambassadors and not hotel-star-tagger. Thus a private ML protects our views. -............(there are many critical issues, that you are already aware of)
Fedora Ambassadors are not those who decide the faith/roadmap(FAB does) of the whole Fedora Project. Thus to the outside world, this mailing list is not important.
A REQUEST TO ALL AMBASSADORS:
The Fedora Ambassador Project had many difficulties in the past. Every time we all worked together to solve those difficulties. We are all proud of the success of our improvements. The latter is based on our 3 years experience we have.
Please next time before deciding something about the Fedora Ambassadors Project's faith, DO NOT destroy what we have constructed during the last past years.
Being a Fedora Ambassador is being part of the exciting Fedora Marketing family. During many events we have proved to the rest of the world we are the most solid and proffesional marketing team.Believe me or not, the closed Fedora Ambassador ML has a lot to contribute to that.
Fedora Marketing Mailing List:
As for more inter-projects collaboration, I believe everyone should make an effort to use the Fedora Marketing List instead of using it as a news-posting media AND leave Fedora Ambassador ML closed for critical issues.
I don't believe that opening ambassador project ML will bring more good than bad things to it. I still stress of the word QUALITY! If you followed our last big events, you would have seen that quality in promoting the Fedora Project.
Making the ambassador subscription process easier is not by opening the ambassador mailing list, but rather every ambassador should work for that.
Vote: -1 : I support JoergSimon's arguments and do not vote blindly.
Kind regards, Chitlesh
-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
2008/9/14 Chitlesh GOORAH chitlesh.goorah@gmail.com:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
It has already been open for quite a long time.
Rahul
Even though the majority once refused ??
It was just open since the beginning. Someone, maybe I, thought it was closed a year and half ago, but it wasn't so. We didn't change that situation. The last two FAmSCos didn't thouch it.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
Francesco Ugolini wrote:
2008/9/14 Chitlesh GOORAH chitlesh.goorah@gmail.com:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
It has already been open for quite a long time.
Rahul
Even though the majority once refused ??
It was just open since the beginning. Someone, maybe I, thought it was closed a year and half ago, but it wasn't so. We didn't change that situation. The last two FAmSCos didn't thouch it.
how about taking this opportunity to do a vote for close or open. Just my 2cts worth.
On Sun, 2008-09-14 at 20:15 +0800, Jason Benedict Low wrote:
how about taking this opportunity to do a vote for close or open. Just my 2cts worth.
I think we would be voting on a number of issue(s).
1: mailing list open \closed
2: m-l Archives keep open \close.
3: Some method for outsiders to pass comments
Frank
2008/9/14 Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com:
On Sun, 2008-09-14 at 20:15 +0800, Jason Benedict Low wrote:
how about taking this opportunity to do a vote for close or open. Just my 2cts worth.
I think we would be voting on a number of issue(s).
1: mailing list open \closed
I think instead of a vote, we have to evaluate the reasons. Paul asked here for feedbacks/suggestions/proposals and we saw a lot of them, but I think the decision must be taken not with a +1 or -1 but with a reasoned thought. I'm sure the previous 50 messages contain a lot of feedbacks and suggestions, and I don't see a reason to destroy them with a no-sense +1, -1 (in the past we noticed that they didn't take a conclusion, meanwhile a reasoned discussion taken to great results).
2: m-l Archives keep open \close.
This discussion was closed 2 years ago.
3: Some method for outsiders to pass comments
FAmSCo is working on a draft and will soon make public the decision, according to all the lot of feedbacks, suggestions and concerns we received. We aren't stealing power to the Ambassadors, we, instead, are taking in consideration each mail, and we are spending our time (sunday too) to search for a clear and reasonable solution.
After 3 years here, trust me when I said this is the best method to have results.
I invite all of you to continue posting your opinion, your proposal and your ideas about this topic: these are the real voting, trust me when I say it.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
I think instead of a vote, we have to evaluate the reasons. Paul asked here for feedbacks/suggestions/proposals and we saw a lot of them, but I think the decision must be taken not with a +1 or -1 but with a reasoned thought. I'm sure the previous 50 messages contain a lot of feedbacks and suggestions, and I don't see a reason to destroy them with a no-sense +1, -1 (in the past we noticed that they didn't take a conclusion, meanwhile a reasoned discussion taken to great results).
As I said previously, FAMSCo needs to weigh everyone's opinions, and then FAMSCo needs to make the decision and defend it. If the Fedora Board or the Fedora Ambassadors community at large disagrees with that (or any) decision, there are ways to deal with it.
--Max
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Frank Murphy wrote:
I think we would be voting on a number of issue(s).
1: mailing list open \closed
2: m-l Archives keep open \close.
3: Some method for outsiders to pass comments
Frank
Please be serious. F10 will soon be out. Concentrate on that.
As for the 3., I said before: fedora marketing ML is meant for that.
Chitlesh
On Sun, 2008-09-14 at 15:50 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
Please be serious.
Each to his own opinion
F10 will soon be out. Concentrate on that.
Discussion is here now, F10 will be Dec 08 if not Jan 09. which will be followed by F11 Rawhide testing. Your Point?
As for the 3., I said before: fedora marketing ML is meant for that.
As I said before so can a "Suggestion Box" Which doesn't require sign up
Frank
2008/9/14 Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com:
Discussion is here now, F10 will be Dec 08 if not Jan 09. which will be followed by F11 Rawhide testing. Your Point?
I think he wanted to say: we have to prepare F10 activities (see for example Release Events party), and it would better to concentrate on those ones (see F10 Release Party preparatory meeting this Tuesday).
BTW, FAmSCo is working on a solution based on the proposals/ideas/doubts posted here: just give us the time to be able to make this, nobody will be unhappy of the result.
We are working on a summary of all opinions. We are elaborating a solution to this discussion. I can assure everyone will find this solution the best one, FAmSCo is here to understand what the whole community want and to make it real.
Thank for you feedback and suggestions, I'm sure your point of view will be taken in consideration by FAmSCo, like all the other ones.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
"Thousands of voices, one voice", I'm sure this could represent what we are trying to do: make all Ambassadors able to see their Voice represented in the final decision.
On Sun, 2008-09-14 at 16:18 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
BTW, FAmSCo is working on a solution based on the proposals/ideas/doubts posted here: just give us the time to be able to make this, nobody will be unhappy of the result.
No problems waiting on it from me.
Fran
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Frank Murphy frankly3d@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, 2008-09-14 at 16:18 +0200, Francesco Ugolini wrote:
BTW, FAmSCo is working on a solution based on the proposals/ideas/doubts posted here: just give us the time to be able to make this, nobody will be unhappy of the result.
No problems waiting on it from me.
I am going to recommend this as a topic for consideration at the FAD in North America next month. I would like to have a discussion there with ambassadors and don't want to rush any decision either. There is no urgency in making this decision in my opinion.
John
2008/9/14 inode0 inode0@gmail.com:
I am going to recommend this as a topic for consideration at the FAD in North America next month. I would like to have a discussion there with ambassadors and don't want to rush any decision either. There is no urgency in making this decision in my opinion.
If everyone agree with this proposal I think everyone could be able to take a pause and think about it.
Fedora EMEA has a well defined position regarding this issue, BTW, there is still a open discussion in the NA community.
I'm asking you to pause (not stop) the discussion until NA ambassadors will meet together and will express their opinion.
--------- Please Read It carefully ------------
Just to be clear, that what FAmSCo is working on:
First of all: FAmSCo will not change the Ambassadors list status. Experienced people, who are here since the first beginning and helped the project grown, explained well their concerns.
FAmSCo though a lot about the consequences: opening the list would mean the lose of a place to discuss about Budget, Mentoring etc., topics that must be discussed only by Ambassadors.
It's really impossible to make a comparison between our list and the other ones: Ambassadors List is a tool, not only a communication means. While the other project using CVS (or a Track system) to store their work, we use Ambassadors List to discuss about Budget and to Train/Mentor people: we wouldn't be able to handle such things with CVS or whatever else.
Ambassadors List is designed to be used only by Ambassadors, if someone want to work with budget and/or mentoring new Ambassadors has to join Ambassadors Project and became an Ambassador. Just it is.
The FAmSCo's plan (but it's still in a draft status) is to create another list where ambassadors could promote their events and fedora contributors could join the discussion. Just an example:
"Sempronio (an ambassadors) is organizing an event; the first step he does is to add it in the Event Wiki Page and, then, send an email to Ambassadors list: here he receives the first support from the other ambassadors and can ask for resources, then FAmSCo post (in the same list) the Quarter budget distribution. Sempronio see he receives xxx$ but he says, in the same list, that he needs more for X,Y,Z reasons. He is luck and, after a brief discussion with FAmSCo and the other Ambassadors, he receives zzz$. Now, he is happy but, unfortunately nobody from Ambassadors could help him: he wish to have some talks at the booth and maybe some helpful hands. At this point, he sends an email to Fedora Event List: here he finds someone who can help him organizing the booth and having a speech." Sounds good?
This is a quite stupid story, but I hope it gives the idea of What could mean have an Ambassadors list and a Event list. Imagine if during the budget discussion 10 people (not ambassadors) will reply asking "why giving him money?" or however talking where they can't talk (in this case Budget).
You may have a question: why someone that isn't an ambassador can't talk about budget? Simple, because if he wants to talk about this one, he has to become an ambassadors. If you don't believe this answer is reasonable there is a question for you: why Ambassadors project exist? Why we are Ambassadors?
We are 100% sure that fedora contributors will be happy to give their help in Event list and Ambassadors still continue to be Ambassadors, without losing but solving the communication gap with the whole community.
I'll send a more detailed proposal after FAD NA 2008 ---------------- End Of File ----------------------
So, before making it official we want to wait FAD NA 2008, that will be held at the beginning of October (10th, if I'm not wrong).
Why wait?
The answer it's clear, they have to evaluate all the considerations made by all the Ambassadors and after they will able to give a position over this issue. I think EMEA Ambassadors, or most of them, expressed the position. I hope to listen LATAM (Center America too) and APAC position too.
If we will find some iron reasons not to apply FAmSCo draft, stay sure, we will change it. But we are convinced that's the best way to solve this, both for people that are "against" and for people that are "for" the Ambassadors list opening.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
2008/9/14 Jason Benedict Low jbenedictlow@gmail.com:
how about taking this opportunity to do a vote for close or open. Just my 2cts worth.
We are talking about M-L archives, and they are just open. I don't see any reason to change it, in fact, as I know, the discussion about M-L archives was caused by a simple mistake made by someone (maybe I), that thought (2 years ago) that the archives were closed, but they were open (I think we we were at first FAD EMEA when we noticed it).
Here we are discussion about Ambassadors list. I think there are interesting points of view and proposal.
Just pause this, just closed, discussion about M-L archives.
Regards
Francesco Ugolini
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote:
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
It has already been open for quite a long time.
Rahul
Even though the majority once refused ??
You guys are talking about different things.
The *archives* are open for anyone to read.
Actual *subscription* policy for joining the list is what the rest of the thread is debating.
I don't want to put words in Chitlesh's mouth, but I think he used the work "archives" when he meant to say "joining the list".
--Max
We joined the group to have a place to get answers to questions and ideas (sugestions) from people that should be able to answer them in a professional and knowledgeable way. If all we wanted was something like a "Suggestion Box" forum we could just do a blog with open comments to all, and I am sure we would have to take it down. WE as crossbytes feel like we are "representing" Fedora so we want to be profesional about it and need a place to get answers, if needed, from "Fedora" not people just intested in Fedora in my opnion that would be like me asking our clients for the answers, makes me look pretty dumb.
I think it should stay the way it is...If opening it up is necessary then it should be a separate list for suggestions only...and I feel sorry for the one that would have to sift through all of the spam and bad stuff to get to the 1 or 2 great ideas... I think as Ambassadors it should be us being the filters from the Public to the mailing list..
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 09:25 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
I have a question for FAMSCo: Can someone who is a well-known and active Fedora contributor join the fedora-ambassadors-list, without having to take on yet more Ambassador duties?
Contributors are to me -- and I think to all Fedora community members -- some of the strongest advocates for Fedora. They contribute to Fedora because they believe in our mission and want to help.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2008-September/msg00...
Still believe my point here is a viable option. And would prevent future debates.
Frank
ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org