I was looking for the F13 install guide at the new docs site [1] but, as there is no Spanish version yet, the site seems to indicate that there is no install-guide at all [2].
Is it possible to have at the left the links to the English version for the untranslated books? So the Fedora documetation list is complete. New users will see untranslated guides in English and would probably want to join us in the translation efforts. What do other language coordinators think?
[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/
[2] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/es-ES/index.html
kind regards
Domingo Becker
Il giorno mer, 26/05/2010 alle 13.35 -0300, Domingo Becker ha scritto:
I was looking for the F13 install guide at the new docs site [1] but, as there is no Spanish version yet, the site seems to indicate that there is no install-guide at all [2].
Is it possible to have at the left the links to the English version for the untranslated books? So the Fedora documetation list is complete. New users will see untranslated guides in English and would probably want to join us in the translation efforts. What do other language coordinators think?
[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/
[2] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/es-ES/index.html
kind regards
Domingo Becker
Hi, i'm not a coordinator, but as a contributor of the it translation team i share the idea.
Luigi
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 05/26/2010 12:56 PM, luigi wrote:
Il giorno mer, 26/05/2010 alle 13.35 -0300, Domingo Becker ha scritto:
I was looking for the F13 install guide at the new docs site [1] but, as there is no Spanish version yet, the site seems to indicate that there is no install-guide at all [2].
Is it possible to have at the left the links to the English version for the untranslated books? So the Fedora documetation list is complete. New users will see untranslated guides in English and would probably want to join us in the translation efforts. What do other language coordinators think?
[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/
[2] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/es-ES/index.html
kind regards
Domingo Becker
Hi, i'm not a coordinator, but as a contributor of the it translation team i share the idea.
Luigi
The easy way to do this is to publish all documents in all languages. That way the guide would be available in English no matter if the text was translated or not.
Of course this would mean partial translations would be published which, in my opinion, are better than no translation.
- --Eric
- -- - --Eric
On 05/27/2010 03:27 AM, Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
The easy way to do this is to publish all documents in all languages. That way the guide would be available in English no matter if the text was translated or not.
Of course this would mean partial translations would be published which, in my opinion, are better than no translation.
Actually, we can do it slightly smarter than that; Publican has an option for exactly this use-case: the "ignored_translations" parameter in the publican.cfg file.
For example, if "ignored_translations" in the Installation Guide was set for Italian and Spanish, then when you built the book for those languages, it would ignore any PO files available and just build the book using the English strings. For very incomplete translations, I think this is better than a book mostly in English with a paragraph here-and-there in a translated language, but translation teams might have other ideas?
I can see two downsides though:
1. It seems wasteful to have multiple copies of exactly the same content stored on the server. It will also make maintaining the site much more difficult if the site image (web.git) grows to something like 40 times its current size. (although this will no longer be a problem when we move to a fully automated publishing system shortly)
2. At the moment, when you see a book in a language menu, you know that it is translated. The situation is not so bad for widely translated languages, but for less widely translated languages, users will click on links and most will be in English; they might not even discover that *any* books have been translated into their language, so the hard work of the translation team gets lost in a sea of English.
In case translators have not realised, the menus are now all automatically generated, so it's not possible for us to manually add links any more. I will ask the Publican developer today whether some kind of "cross linking" is possible. Even if this becomes possible, it would solve problem 1 but not problem 2.
I wonder if a better solution would be for me to add a prominent notice to the "Welcome" page to tell visitors "to see a full list of all documentation, change the language to English"?
Cheers Rudi
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Ruediger Landmann r.landmann@redhat.com wrote:
- At the moment, when you see a book in a language menu, you know that
it is translated. The situation is not so bad for widely translated languages, but for less widely translated languages, users will click on links and most will be in English; they might not even discover that *any* books have been translated into their language, so the hard work of the translation team gets lost in a sea of English.
Document titles could and should be displayed in the native language, and English titles will then stand out.
I wonder if a better solution would be for me to add a prominent notice to the "Welcome" page to tell visitors "to see a full list of all documentation, change the language to English"?
In the meantime, definitely.
Regards, Miloš
On 05/27/2010 07:13 AM, Miloš Komarčević wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Ruediger Landmann r.landmann@redhat.com wrote:
- At the moment, when you see a book in a language menu, you know that
it is translated. The situation is not so bad for widely translated languages, but for less widely translated languages, users will click on links and most will be in English; they might not even discover that *any* books have been translated into their language, so the hard work of the translation team gets lost in a sea of English.
Document titles could and should be displayed in the native language, and English titles will then stand out.
Actually, that's a good point!
Publican has only recently gained the ability to display the translated titles of documents in the menu rather than the English titles (only after I had already built the site!) Changing the titles the "proper" way involves uninstalling and reinstalling each document (around 300 of them...) so I'm investigating how I can fix this without having to do that :)
I wonder if a better solution would be for me to add a prominent notice to the "Welcome" page to tell visitors "to see a full list of all documentation, change the language to English"?
In the meantime, definitely.
OK -- I'll get this done today. Thanks for the feedback :)
Cheers Rudi
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 05/26/2010 04:41 PM, Ruediger Landmann wrote:
On 05/27/2010 03:27 AM, Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
The easy way to do this is to publish all documents in all languages. That way the guide would be available in English no matter if the text was translated or not.
Of course this would mean partial translations would be published which, in my opinion, are better than no translation.
Actually, we can do it slightly smarter than that; Publican has an option for exactly this use-case: the "ignored_translations" parameter in the publican.cfg file.
For example, if "ignored_translations" in the Installation Guide was set for Italian and Spanish, then when you built the book for those languages, it would ignore any PO files available and just build the book using the English strings. For very incomplete translations, I think this is better than a book mostly in English with a paragraph here-and-there in a translated language, but translation teams might have other ideas?
So we would have to manually enter all the languages that we don't want translated?
I can see two downsides though:
- It seems wasteful to have multiple copies of exactly the same content
stored on the server. It will also make maintaining the site much more difficult if the site image (web.git) grows to something like 40 times its current size. (although this will no longer be a problem when we move to a fully automated publishing system shortly)
Well, we should plan on that kind of space, anyway. If (when) all the guides get completely translated we'll need that kind of storage.
- At the moment, when you see a book in a language menu, you know that
it is translated. The situation is not so bad for widely translated languages, but for less widely translated languages, users will click on links and most will be in English; they might not even discover that *any* books have been translated into their language, so the hard work of the translation team gets lost in a sea of English.
Maybe you tint the non-translated versions down to a gray. You can see them but they don't stand out like the translated versions.>
Cheers Rudi
- --Eric
Eric "Sparks" Christensen wrote:
Maybe you tint the non-translated versions down to a gray. You can see them but they don't stand out like the translated versions.>
Or perhaps add the words '(English Version)', the way it is seen on the Red Hat Documentation website:
http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-5-manual/es-ES/index.html
hth
regards Runa
Il giorno mer, 26/05/2010 alle 13.35 -0300, Domingo Becker ha scritto:
I was looking for the F13 install guide at the new docs site [1] but, as there is no Spanish version yet, the site seems to indicate that there is no install-guide at all [2].
Is it possible to have at the left the links to the English version for the untranslated books? So the Fedora documetation list is complete. New users will see untranslated guides in English and would probably want to join us in the translation efforts. What do other language coordinators think?
[1] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/
[2] http://docs.fedoraproject.org/es-ES/index.html
kind regards
Domingo Becker
Hi, i'm not a coordinator, but as a contributor of the it translation team i share the idea.
Luigi
On 05/27/2010 02:35 AM, Domingo Becker wrote:
I was looking for the F13 install guide at the new docs site [1] but, as there is no Spanish version yet, the site seems to indicate that there is no install-guide at all [2].
Is it possible to have at the left the links to the English version for the untranslated books? So the Fedora documetation list is complete. New users will see untranslated guides in English and would probably want to join us in the translation efforts.
Hi all; this feature is now implemented in the latest Publican source, and I've rebuilt the Fedora documentation site to use it. Any books that we published for a particular Fedora release now appear under an "untranslated" heading an all languages other than English, with links to the English versions of the documents.
You can translate "untranslated" into your language (together with other parts of the navigation iframe such as "collapse all", "map", "statistics" etc), in Transifex here: https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/publican/c/trunk/ (unfortunately, for technical reasons, we have not yet made the "Search" button translatable).
Publican also now uses the translated titles of documents wherever available; I'm gradually rebuilding docs to use this feature and hope to have this finished soon. At the moment, some translated docs still show their English titles in some languages.
Both these features in Publican came about because of feedback from the Fedora Localization team over the past few weeks -- thanks very much for the suggestions!
Cheers Rudi