I recently tried installing Fedora 9 on an iBook that I need to boot both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X on. I also have some other partitioning constraints, so I ended up with 6 partitions before I started the Fedora 9 install.
Fedora 9 happily created lots more partitions, but then Mac OS 9 (and X, IIRC) refused to boot. Couldn't recognize the format of the disk. (Might have helped if I had got a 120 G HD instead of a 160 G HD?)
Also, on a separate iteration, when I tried to force the yaboot partition to 1MB, that also apparently made the partition map unacceptable to Mac OS 9.
I had to wipe the disks with the Mac OS 9 formatter and start again. (Lost a day or so of my time, but no data.) Since I thought I had time, I tried an install of just Fedora, but the current partitioning software wouldn't create the partition for yaboot any smaller than 16MB, IIRC, and then it wouldn't install yaboot in anything bigger than 1MB.
I am currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9 & X (Jaguar) and openBSD, but openBSD is not using yaboot. I give the four-finger salute on startup and type "boot hd:,ofwboot /bsd" at the open firmware prompt. That doesn't really bother me, even though I have to remember that the keyboard map is US and doesn't match the Japanese keyboard. :-/
openBSD seems to take a little more nursing than I currently have time for, and I am primarily interested in getting the Gimp and openoffice.org running. Well, probably some of the edutainment stuff, as well.
In about two weeks, one of the partitions will be freed, so I should have three partitions to give Fedora 9, and I am thinking of trying again. But I won't have the day or so necessary to re-build the Mac OS 9/X sides of things if the Fedora partitioning software makes the map unreadable to Mac OS 9 again. So, I am wondering a couple of things:
One, Is anyone is currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9, Mac OS X, and Fedora 9 on any system, especially one with a boot HD larger than 120G?
Two, would it be possible to boot with openBSD's approach, invoking an openfirmware script on the Mac OS 9 boot disk? (I haven't been able, yet, to untangle the web of what happened when yaboot became usable.)
Joel Rees
On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 09:58 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
I recently tried installing Fedora 9 on an iBook that I need to boot both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X on. I also have some other partitioning constraints, so I ended up with 6 partitions before I started the Fedora 9 install.
Fedora 9 happily created lots more partitions, but then Mac OS 9 (and X, IIRC) refused to boot. Couldn't recognize the format of the disk. (Might have helped if I had got a 120 G HD instead of a 160 G HD?)
Also, on a separate iteration, when I tried to force the yaboot partition to 1MB, that also apparently made the partition map unacceptable to Mac OS 9.
I had to wipe the disks with the Mac OS 9 formatter and start again. (Lost a day or so of my time, but no data.) Since I thought I had time, I tried an install of just Fedora, but the current partitioning software wouldn't create the partition for yaboot any smaller than 16MB, IIRC, and then it wouldn't install yaboot in anything bigger than 1MB.
I am currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9 & X (Jaguar) and openBSD, but openBSD is not using yaboot. I give the four-finger salute on startup and type "boot hd:,ofwboot /bsd" at the open firmware prompt. That doesn't really bother me, even though I have to remember that the keyboard map is US and doesn't match the Japanese keyboard. :-/
openBSD seems to take a little more nursing than I currently have time for, and I am primarily interested in getting the Gimp and openoffice.org running. Well, probably some of the edutainment stuff, as well.
In about two weeks, one of the partitions will be freed, so I should have three partitions to give Fedora 9, and I am thinking of trying again. But I won't have the day or so necessary to re-build the Mac OS 9/X sides of things if the Fedora partitioning software makes the map unreadable to Mac OS 9 again. So, I am wondering a couple of things:
One, Is anyone is currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9, Mac OS X, and Fedora 9 on any system, especially one with a boot HD larger than 120G?
Two, would it be possible to boot with openBSD's approach, invoking an openfirmware script on the Mac OS 9 boot disk? (I haven't been able, yet, to untangle the web of what happened when yaboot became usable.)
---- I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of different Mac setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.
Anyway...I'm not sure why you would want or if you can have separate boot partitions for Mac OS 9 and OS-X and wonder why you would want to do that because if you create an HFS partition for both OS-9 (Classic) and OS-X you would normally keep them on the same setup and use the control panel 'Startup Disk' to choose which would boot.
Use the Disk Utilities option on Mac OS-X install to create the partition for OS-X/Classic and leave appropriate 'unpartitioned' space for BSD and/or Linux. I would expect that if you install Fedora last, it will handle the installation of yaboot/yaboot.conf for you and give you all of the startup options.
Craig
(Giving a little more detail:)
On Aug 23, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 09:58 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
I recently tried installing Fedora 9 on an iBook that I need to boot both Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X on. I also have some other partitioning constraints, so I ended up with 6 partitions before I started the Fedora 9 install.
Specifically, a Mac OS 9 partition (I know this is not necessary, but it does make the whole lludge more robust.), two booting Mac OS X partititions (Not case sensitive or journaling formatted, 10.2 is too early for that.), a UFS partition to serve to the web (Required by the configuration of one of the Mac OS X systems.), a UFS swap partition (Not strictly required, but, again, it makes the system more robust in my case, if not in the general case.), a partition intended for sharing with Linux
Actually, I pre-partitioned the yaboot partition and the Linux big partition with the Mac OS X utility, as well. And the Mac OS 9 utility.
Well, my memory is a bit confused, since I tried this several times, several different ways. I don't remember for sure, but I don't think the 1M partions I created with either the Mac OS 9 utility or the Mac OS X utility were accepted by the installer as boot partitions for yaboot. Don't remember all the ways I tried to get the installer to use them, but I couldn't.
Fedora 9 happily created lots more partitions,
... when I told it to.
but then Mac OS 9 (and X, IIRC) refused to boot. Couldn't recognize the format of the disk. (Might have helped if I had got a 120 G HD instead of a 160 G HD?)
I think this was due to having more partitions than Mac OS 9 could deal with. I think, in one case, Mac OS X did boot, in
Also, on a separate iteration, when I tried to force the yaboot partition to 1MB, that also apparently made the partition map unacceptable to Mac OS 9.
I had to wipe the disks with the Mac OS 9 formatter and start again. (Lost a day or so of my time, but no data.) Since I thought I had time, I tried an install of just Fedora, but the current partitioning software wouldn't create the partition for yaboot any smaller than 16MB, IIRC, and then it wouldn't install yaboot in anything bigger than 1MB.
I am currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9 & X (Jaguar) and openBSD, but openBSD is not using yaboot. I give the four-finger salute on startup and type "boot hd:,ofwboot /bsd" at the open firmware prompt. That doesn't really bother me, even though I have to remember that the keyboard map is US and doesn't match the Japanese keyboard. :-/
openBSD seems to take a little more nursing than I currently have time for, and I am primarily interested in getting the Gimp and openoffice.org running. Well, probably some of the edutainment stuff, as well.
In about two weeks, one of the partitions will be freed, so I should have three partitions to give Fedora 9, and I am thinking of trying again. But I won't have the day or so necessary to re-build the Mac OS 9/X sides of things if the Fedora partitioning software makes the map unreadable to Mac OS 9 again. So, I am wondering a couple of things:
One, Is anyone is currently successfully multi-booting Mac OS 9, Mac OS X, and Fedora 9 on any system, especially one with a boot HD larger than 120G?
Two, would it be possible to boot with openBSD's approach, invoking an openfirmware script on the Mac OS 9 boot disk? (I haven't been able, yet, to untangle the web of what happened when yaboot became usable.)
I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of different Mac setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.
Different requirements. I need to take time out to learn how to program for ODF and PDF, so I can build programs that will do some things I presently use AppleWorks documents to accomplish. Until then, I need to be able to do a lot of work in the Mac OS.
Anyway...I'm not sure why you would want or if you can have separate boot partitions for Mac OS 9 and OS-X and wonder why you would want to do that because if you create an HFS partition for both OS-9 (Classic) and OS-X you would normally keep them on the same setup and use the control panel 'Startup Disk' to choose which would boot.
It's slightly more robust to put Mac OS 9 on a separate partition. My kids like to play a game called Bugdom that only exists in a Mac OS 9 version, and I've seen that game do funny things to Mac OS 9, so I'm a little superstitious about it. I may not absolutely need to, but cutting the partitions again will require me to install from scratch again, and I won't have time for that for a while.
Use the Disk Utilities option on Mac OS-X install to create the partition for OS-X/Classic and leave appropriate 'unpartitioned' space for BSD and/or Linux.
Yeah, being able to boot both Linux and openbsd would be nice. Might be worth a tradeoff or two.
I would expect that if you install Fedora last, it will handle the installation of yaboot/yaboot.conf for you and give you all of the startup options.
That's why I experimented with only installing Fedora, but I got stuck at the problem with making a partition small enough for yaboot.
Anyway, if there is an openfirmware incantation that I can use instead of installing yaboot, I could try that the next time I have time to work on this.
Hate to be noisy, but I sure appreciate any pointers I can get.
Joel Rees
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 15:24 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
(Giving a little more detail:)
On Aug 23, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Craig White wrote:
Actually, I pre-partitioned the yaboot partition and the Linux big partition with the Mac OS X utility, as well. And the Mac OS 9 utility.
---- I had hoped that someone with experience with multi-boot on Macintosh would have piped in because I lack this experience myself but I got the impression that the Fedora installer created the yaboot partition itself but I may have just let it.
looking at a Mac with Fedora 8 installed, the anaconda-ks.cfg reports... #clearpart --all --initlabel --drives=hda #part appleboot --fstype "Apple Bootstrap" --size=1 --ondisk=hda #part /boot --fstype ext3 --size=100 --ondisk=hda #part / --fstype ext3 --size=1 --grow --ondisk=hda #part swap --size=256 --grow --maxsize=512 --ondisk=hda
So evidently, I must have allowed the druid to create the partitions but note that anaconda on a ppc permits an fstype of 'Apple Bootstrap' so yeah, if you are gonna install multi-boot, you gotta have 1 mb partition designated for it.
this may be useful (apparently you can't use fdisk on an Apple system) # parted -l Model: Maxtor 6Y080L0 (ide) Disk /dev/hda: 82.0GB Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B Partition Table: mac
Number Start End Size File system Name Flags 1 512B 32.8kB 32.3kB Apple 2 32.8kB 1081kB 1049kB hfs untitled boot 3 1081kB 106MB 105MB ext3 untitled 4 106MB 641MB 535MB linux-swap swap swap 5 641MB 82.0GB 81.3GB ext3 untitled
obviously the yaboot partition is #2 ----
I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of different Mac setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.
Different requirements. I need to take time out to learn how to program for ODF and PDF, so I can build programs that will do some things I presently use AppleWorks documents to accomplish. Until then, I need to be able to do a lot of work in the Mac OS.
---- Appleworks is a black hole...it's virtually impossible to get documents out of Appleworks unless you are willing to open each one individually, save it as the Microsoft equivalent which is a time hog.
OOo has a terrific set of tools for document creation...I think it puts Appleworks to shame. ----
Anyway, if there is an openfirmware incantation that I can use instead of installing yaboot, I could try that the next time I have time to work on this.
---- I don't think so (on ppc...this is all you get) - OFI is for the Intel based Macs ----
Hate to be noisy, but I sure appreciate any pointers I can get.
---- you probably got the best I had to offer - I actually made a clean install of OS 9.1 that I then made into a dmg file with 'Disk Utility' so I could just dump a full OS 9 setup onto any computer running OSX so it would work in Classic Mode or reboot to OS 9 if I chose it in 'Startup Disk' (it's just under 300 mb).
Craig
On Aug 26, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Craig White wrote:
On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 15:24 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
(Giving a little more detail:)
On Aug 23, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Craig White wrote:
Actually, I pre-partitioned the yaboot partition and the Linux big partition with the Mac OS X utility, as well. And the Mac OS 9 utility.
I had hoped that someone with experience with multi-boot on Macintosh would have piped in because I lack this experience myself but I got the impression that the Fedora installer created the yaboot partition itself but I may have just let it.
When you let it do the automatic setup it does.
But Anaconda still isn't able to use it on my iBook.
looking at a Mac with Fedora 8 installed, the anaconda-ks.cfg reports... #clearpart --all --initlabel --drives=hda #part appleboot --fstype "Apple Bootstrap" --size=1 --ondisk=hda #part /boot --fstype ext3 --size=100 --ondisk=hda #part / --fstype ext3 --size=1 --grow --ondisk=hda #part swap --size=256 --grow --maxsize=512 --ondisk=hda
So evidently, I must have allowed the druid to create the partitions but note that anaconda on a ppc permits an fstype of 'Apple Bootstrap' so yeah, if you are gonna install multi-boot, you gotta have 1 mb partition designated for it.
this may be useful (apparently you can't use fdisk on an Apple system) # parted -l Model: Maxtor 6Y080L0 (ide) Disk /dev/hda: 82.0GB Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B Partition Table: mac
Number Start End Size File system Name Flags 1 512B 32.8kB 32.3kB Apple 2 32.8kB 1081kB 1049kB hfs untitled boot 3 1081kB 106MB 105MB ext3 untitled 4 106MB 641MB 535MB linux-swap swap swap 5 641MB 82.0GB 81.3GB ext3 untitled
obviously the yaboot partition is #2
That's a 100G drive?
I haven't done multi-boot Mac's but I have done a bunch of different Mac setups. I'm not really a fan of multi-boot on any hardware choice.
Different requirements. I need to take time out to learn how to program for ODF and PDF, so I can build programs that will do some things I presently use AppleWorks documents to accomplish. Until then, I need to be able to do a lot of work in the Mac OS.
Appleworks is a black hole...it's virtually impossible to get documents out of Appleworks unless you are willing to open each one individually, save it as the Microsoft equivalent which is a time hog.
Well, actually, Apple's iWok^Hrk suite, now that I look things up, is supposed to import a lot of the old AppleWorks stuff okay now. Just not the vector stuff.
As for being a black hole, yeah, the data format is archaic.
OOo has a terrific set of tools for document creation...I think it puts Appleworks to shame.
Different strokes for different folks. OOo feels clumsy to me. Feels too much like MSOffice.
That may be in part because I've been burned by MSOffice so many times that even the slightest whiff of MS turns my stomach.
But what I'm using that is indispensable to me right now is a little feature where you can bury a spreadsheet in a "draw" document, show small windows on the printable page, and use the sort function with random keys to randomize the words in the printed list. Kind of a slick way to make word bingo cards, among other things. And I'm doing a lot of less program-like stuff with the drawing software, too.
That SVG editor (inkscape?) that was in the news recently may help a lot for when I need to do drawings.
Thinking about this, I suppose I should be able to build something similar with hidden worksheets in the MSOffice-centric way of thinking. Maybe I'll try that with OOo sometime. (I do use it on other, more powerful hardware. And I have to admit, I should not be surprised if the AppleWorks version might turn out to be less intuitive to my fellow teachers who might want to use the teaching materials I'm creating than an MSExcel "workbook" or whatever that would be called. Also, I've thought, several times, that I might be able to get even better effects by programing a plugin for OOo, just haven't had the time and luck to figure out how to get a handle on that yet.)
Anyway, if there is an openfirmware incantation that I can use instead of installing yaboot, I could try that the next time I have time to work on this.
I don't think so (on ppc...this is all you get) - OFI is for the Intel based Macs
I think you mean EFI, which is iNTEL's take on openfirmware?
Hate to be noisy, but I sure appreciate any pointers I can get.
you probably got the best I had to offer - I actually made a clean install of OS 9.1 that I then made into a dmg file with 'Disk Utility' so I could just dump a full OS 9 setup onto any computer running OSX so it would work in Classic Mode or reboot to OS 9 if I chose it in 'Startup Disk' (it's just under 300 mb).
That might also work, but the games aren't the only things. An old Metrowerks compiler/IDE, for example, easily consumes 1G, and I'm not anxious to put that on an image file on this 300MHz iBook. Don't know how much longer I'll need it, but I still need it for a little while.
Actually, there are a number of ways I can free up partitions, once I get some old cruft cleared away in the dd-ed copy of the previous boot partition, but that's really not on-topic here.
I filed a bug report on the part of this where gparted won't make a small enough partition on my disk and anaconda won't use the partitions I can make -- bugzilla #460390
Thanks for trading ideas.
Hopefully, I can either get the time to get openBSD set up with X11 and the Gimp and OOo or I can find out enough to get it to boot ofboot and yaboot from my Mac OS 9 partition in the next few months.
Really want to see how heavy OOo is in Linux on this box. The NeoOffice fork of OOo was too heavy on Mac OS X 10.2 with 192M of RAM. If I want to try that again, or if I want to try the new OOo for X11 on the Mac, I'll have to upgrade the iBook to 10.3, and I'm not anxious to spend the money and time on that. I'd rather just get a new notebook that can handle it OOo better under Linux. Some of these webbooks look really nice, and especially handy for when I want to do some work on the train.
More rambling than useful information here, hopefully not too much noise.
Joel Rees
On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 11:00 +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
On Aug 26, 2008, at 12:12 PM, Craig White wrote:
this may be useful (apparently you can't use fdisk on an Apple system) # parted -l Model: Maxtor 6Y080L0 (ide) Disk /dev/hda: 82.0GB Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B Partition Table: mac
Number Start End Size File system Name Flags 1 512B 32.8kB 32.3kB Apple 2 32.8kB 1081kB 1049kB hfs untitled boot 3 1081kB 106MB 105MB ext3 untitled 4 106MB 641MB 535MB linux-swap swap swap 5 641MB 82.0GB 81.3GB ext3 untitled
obviously the yaboot partition is #2
That's a 100G drive?
---- parted says that it's an 82G drive ----
OOo has a terrific set of tools for document creation...I think it puts Appleworks to shame.
Different strokes for different folks. OOo feels clumsy to me. Feels too much like MSOffice.
---- totally intentional - It allows people to leverage what they already know rather than scuffling through a completely different interface. ----
That may be in part because I've been burned by MSOffice so many times that even the slightest whiff of MS turns my stomach.
But what I'm using that is indispensable to me right now is a little feature where you can bury a spreadsheet in a "draw" document, show small windows on the printable page, and use the sort function with random keys to randomize the words in the printed list. Kind of a slick way to make word bingo cards, among other things. And I'm doing a lot of less program-like stuff with the drawing software, too.
That SVG editor (inkscape?) that was in the news recently may help a lot for when I need to do drawings.
Thinking about this, I suppose I should be able to build something similar with hidden worksheets in the MSOffice-centric way of thinking. Maybe I'll try that with OOo sometime. (I do use it on other, more powerful hardware. And I have to admit, I should not be surprised if the AppleWorks version might turn out to be less intuitive to my fellow teachers who might want to use the teaching materials I'm creating than an MSExcel "workbook" or whatever that would be called. Also, I've thought, several times, that I might be able to get even better effects by programing a plugin for OOo, just haven't had the time and luck to figure out how to get a handle on that yet.)
---- you really should be using scribus - desktop publishing because you can put all sorts of different elements (text/graphics) anywhere on the page. ----
I think you mean EFI, which is iNTEL's take on openfirmware?
---- indeed ----
you probably got the best I had to offer - I actually made a clean install of OS 9.1 that I then made into a dmg file with 'Disk Utility' so I could just dump a full OS 9 setup onto any computer running OSX so it would work in Classic Mode or reboot to OS 9 if I chose it in 'Startup Disk' (it's just under 300 mb).
That might also work, but the games aren't the only things. An old Metrowerks compiler/IDE, for example, easily consumes 1G, and I'm not anxious to put that on an image file on this 300MHz iBook. Don't know how much longer I'll need it, but I still need it for a little while.
---- the dmg file is a time saver meaning that I didn't have to struggle through creating an OS 9 setup once I had the image, I could mount the image and just copy over the 'System Folder', 'Applications (Mac OS 9)' folders and I was pretty much set. ----
Actually, there are a number of ways I can free up partitions, once I get some old cruft cleared away in the dd-ed copy of the previous boot partition, but that's really not on-topic here.
I filed a bug report on the part of this where gparted won't make a small enough partition on my disk and anaconda won't use the partitions I can make -- bugzilla #460390
Thanks for trading ideas.
Hopefully, I can either get the time to get openBSD set up with X11 and the Gimp and OOo or I can find out enough to get it to boot ofboot and yaboot from my Mac OS 9 partition in the next few months.
Really want to see how heavy OOo is in Linux on this box. The NeoOffice fork of OOo was too heavy on Mac OS X 10.2 with 192M of RAM. If I want to try that again, or if I want to try the new OOo for X11 on the Mac, I'll have to upgrade the iBook to 10.3, and I'm not anxious to spend the money and time on that. I'd rather just get a new notebook that can handle it OOo better under Linux. Some of these webbooks look really nice, and especially handy for when I want to do some work on the train.
More rambling than useful information here, hopefully not too much noise.
---- Neo-Office has been a performance pig on every installation I have seen - such a pig that it is unusable...period...at least OOo is usable but you are correct that on Mac OSX 10.2, there are few options.
With only 192 mb RAM, I would probably investigate whether I could get XFCE running on ppc just to liven it up.
good luck
Craig