Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
My hw is Asus, EeePC 1000, 1GB ram, 40GB disk.
Anyone running FC (11 maybe?) on hw like this?
Thx, jackc...
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 18:39 -0800, jack craig wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
My hw is Asus, EeePC 1000, 1GB ram, 40GB disk.
Anyone running FC (11 maybe?) on hw like this?
Hi Jack,
(1) Curious about why you say Moblin is dead? I missed the announcement!
(2) I'm writing this on a EeePC 1000HA (1GB, 160GB - but I'm using less than 20G) running F12 very nicely.
-Chris
Perhaps the Ubuntu Netbook Remix would serve your needs.
Ubuntu also support ARM microprocessors, which these days are commonly used for mobile phones, but which soon will also be used for netbooks.
The ARM architecture is vastly superior to x86 when power consumption - or battery life - is an important consideration.
The Ubuntu ARM distribution is not yet really ready for use by the typical end-user, but should be straightforward to install and use for experienced Linux users. If you don't own an actual ARM microprocessor, you can run it under QEMU, using the qemu-system-arm command.
Don Quixote
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:39:25 -0800 jack craig jackc@linuxlighthouse.com wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
oh? Not that I have heard.
My hw is Asus, EeePC 1000, 1GB ram, 40GB disk.
Anyone running FC (11 maybe?) on hw like this?
I have a Eeepc 900a with 512mb ram and 4GB disk.
It's happily running Xfce here. I have recently just tried lxde, moblin and gnome-shell on it. They all ran ok, but I just prefer Xfce.
kevin
Kevin Fenzi wrote:
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:39:25 -0800 jack craig jackc@linuxlighthouse.com wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
oh? Not that I have heard.
I think the OP misspoke slightly.....
"I'm sure you've heard the news: Moblin and maemo are merging! We are taking the best pieces from these two open source projects and are creating the MeeGo software platform. Both teams have worked for a long time to support the needs of the mobile user experience - and MeeGo will make this even better. We want it to be fun, focused, flexible, technically challenging, and ultimately, something that can change the world."
More info available on http://moblin.org/
My hw is Asus, EeePC 1000, 1GB ram, 40GB disk.
Anyone running FC (11 maybe?) on hw like this?
I have a Eeepc 900a with 512mb ram and 4GB disk.
It's happily running Xfce here. I have recently just tried lxde, moblin and gnome-shell on it. They all ran ok, but I just prefer Xfce.
kevin
On Monday 15 February 2010 09:36:57 pm Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote:
Perhaps the Ubuntu Netbook Remix would serve your needs.
Ubuntu also support ARM microprocessors, which these days are commonly used for mobile phones, but which soon will also be used for netbooks.
The ARM architecture is vastly superior to x86 when power consumption
- or battery life - is an important consideration.
The Ubuntu ARM distribution is not yet really ready for use by the typical end-user, but should be straightforward to install and use for experienced Linux users. If you don't own an actual ARM microprocessor, you can run it under QEMU, using the qemu-system-arm command.
Don Quixote
You do realise that there is a fedora arm port right? I run it on my beagle board and sheva plug. it runs nicely
Dennis
You do realise that there is a fedora arm port right? I run it on my beagle board and sheva plug. it runs nicely
Dennis
that's true, runs very nice, very stable.
in brazil the energy cost's alot of money, and arm don't wast energy, I am very happy with my Lord Sheeva running Fedora
also reduced alot my eletric bill!
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Itamar Reis Peixoto itamar@ispbrasil.com.br wrote:
You do realise that there is a fedora arm port right? I run it on my beagle board and sheva plug. it runs nicely
Ah, thanks - I did not know. I'll definitely check it out.
in brazil the energy cost's alot of money, and arm don't wast energy, I am very happy with my Lord Sheeva running Fedora
also reduced alot my eletric bill!
Funny you should say that: I went to all kinds of effort and expense to build the very most powerful Xeon box I could afford.
What I didn't realize, was that it would generate so much heat that I would not be able to tolerate its use with my window shut. The box is in my bedroom; if I should fall asleep while it is running, I will awaken drenched in sweat.
For that reason, I plan to replace the standard Xeon CPU and FB-DIMM memory with their low-power equivalents. Happily my Supermicro X7DWA-N motherboard is compatible with both standard and low-power components.
It will cost a lot of money to replace them, but it didn't take long for me to figure out that the low-power components would pay for themselves within a year, because of lower energy costs.
Don Quixote
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 20:52 -0800, Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote:
I went to all kinds of effort and expense to build the very most powerful Xeon box I could afford.
What I didn't realize, was that it would generate so much heat that I would not be able to tolerate its use with my window shut. The box is in my bedroom; if I should fall asleep while it is running, I will awaken drenched in sweat.
Water cooling, with the radiator sitting outside?
Heat's a real problem in my industry (video production), too. By the time you've plugged in audio and video mixers, audio amplifier, several video monitors, and other equipment in, you're using 700 watts. Which isn't far off plugging in a 500 watt bar radiator, as far as warming up the room, goes.
For my computers, I've stuck with old, low power, ~500 MHz Celerons to work my file and mail server. It's more than fast enough for that task, and doesn't use much power. I've one moderately powerful desktop and laptop computer.
On 02/15/2010 11:44 PM, Tim wrote:
For my computers, I've stuck with old, low power, ~500 MHz Celerons to work my file and mail server. It's more than fast enough for that task, and doesn't use much power. I've one moderately powerful desktop and laptop computer.
I would suggest you find out how much Celeron is really using before thinking it is low power.
http://michael.cronenworth.com/index.php?post/2009/10/19/How-To%3A-Earn-Your...
;)
On 16 February 2010 05:48, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.com wrote:
On 02/15/2010 11:44 PM, Tim wrote:
For my computers, I've stuck with old, low power, ~500 MHz Celerons to work my file and mail server. It's more than fast enough for that task, and doesn't use much power. I've one moderately powerful desktop and laptop computer.
I would suggest you find out how much Celeron is really using before thinking it is low power.
http://michael.cronenworth.com/index.php?post/2009/10/19/How-To%3A-Earn-Your...
That was an interesting read Michael. :)
;)
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 23:48 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
I would suggest you find out how much Celeron is really using before thinking it is low power.
Well, considering that the PSU is only a 90 watt-er, a simple motherboard with only on-board i810, low amount of RAM, no daughterboards, etc., it's going to use less power than a new box full of stuff, with heatsinks radiating heat everywhere... And it certainly can't draw as much power as the other box with the 400 watt supply. And you can feel the heat difference between the different PCs.
It's lower power, not radically lower, but still lower than using an over-powered PC. The electricity usage isn't that much of an issue, but being in a room with a /radiator/ always running is. I certainly notice such things (PCs that are hotter than others) when we have several 40 degree C days in a row.
On 02/16/2010 12:57 AM, Tim wrote:
Well, considering that the PSU is only a 90 watt-er, a simple motherboard with only on-board i810, low amount of RAM, no daughterboards, etc., it's going to use less power than a new box full of stuff, with heatsinks radiating heat everywhere... And it certainly can't draw as much power as the other box with the 400 watt supply. And you can feel the heat difference between the different PCs.
It's lower power, not radically lower, but still lower than using an over-powered PC. The electricity usage isn't that much of an issue, but being in a room with a/radiator/ always running is. I certainly notice such things (PCs that are hotter than others) when we have several 40 degree C days in a row.
It's obvious you didn't even read my link. Please read my link.
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 18:39 -0800, jack craig wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
As someone alse already pointed out, Moblin is not dead.
What is happening is that Moblin (intel-based) and Maemo (Arm-based) are merging to create MeeGo.
MeeGo is supposed to have common lower layers, and alternative UX (User eXperience) layers. There will be UX layers for cell phones, tablets, netbooks, stationary media phones, and whatnot.
MeeGo will use rpm as packaging mechanism. It will run X, have gtk support, but main GUI SDK will be QT.
Given that it should support intel and arm and be based on rpm, is there some way fedora and MeeGo could interact? Could a platform with Intel and Nokia as sponsors cooperate with the huge Fedora community with RedHat as sponsor? Could Fedora become a development platform for both? It would certainly help defragment linux a bit.
MeeGo is set to become the biggest linux on mobile devices if Nokia mean what they say: According to Ari Jaaksi, VP Nokia “We will put all our force behind making MeeGo THE operating system” and “Nokia will ship tons of MeeGo devices, Intel, too. And others will use MeeGo in their devices. It is open, free, powerful and compatible.”
That said, I prefer running Fedora on my netbooks. I actually think there is no problem at all running a full gnome on a netbook. I usually remove the panels and install cairo-dock. I also make a few gui tweaks that I am used to doing on older hardware (getting rid of gradients in window borders and so on). Seriously, a netbook is more powerful than what I used to run linux on just 1-2 years ago.
birger
On Tuesday 16 February 2010 04:52:10 Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote:
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Itamar Reis Peixoto
in brazil the energy cost's alot of money, and arm don't wast energy, I am very happy with my Lord Sheeva running Fedora
also reduced alot my eletric bill!
Funny you should say that: I went to all kinds of effort and expense to build the very most powerful Xeon box I could afford.
What I didn't realize, was that it would generate so much heat that I would not be able to tolerate its use with my window shut. The box is in my bedroom; if I should fall asleep while it is running, I will awaken drenched in sweat.
You need to install an air conditioner.
(sorry, couldn't resist... :-D )
Best, :-) Marko
Marko Vojinovic wrote:
On Tuesday 16 February 2010 04:52:10 Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote:
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Itamar Reis Peixoto
in brazil the energy cost's alot of money, and arm don't wast energy, I am very happy with my Lord Sheeva running Fedora
also reduced alot my eletric bill!
Funny you should say that: I went to all kinds of effort and expense to build the very most powerful Xeon box I could afford.
What I didn't realize, was that it would generate so much heat that I would not be able to tolerate its use with my window shut. The box is in my bedroom; if I should fall asleep while it is running, I will awaken drenched in sweat.
You need to install an air conditioner.
(sorry, couldn't resist... :-D )
In the winter time here in Taipei my dual Xeon system is my only source of heat....
(1) Curious about why you say Moblin is dead? I missed the announcement!
(2) I'm writing this on a EeePC 1000HA (1GB, 160GB - but I'm using less than 20G) running F12 very nicely.
Moblin and Maemo are merging to produce one project using the best bits of each to produce a single distro
www.meego.com
I run Fedora/xfce/claws on my travelling netbook and its fast and useful. Not the quickest kernel compile box on the planet but that's not surprising. I do wish claws was better at handling slow imap links over mobile phone though.
Alan
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 01:38 -0600, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
It's obvious you didn't even read my link. Please read my link.
Bzzt, WRONG!
Some other guy's comparison between two PCs that he has, bears no relation to a comparison of two PCs that I have.
Hi,
On 02/16/2010 02:58 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
(1) Curious about why you say Moblin is dead? I missed the announcement!
(2) I'm writing this on a EeePC 1000HA (1GB, 160GB - but I'm using less than 20G) running F12 very nicely.
Moblin and Maemo are merging to produce one project using the best bits of each to produce a single distro
www.meego.com
Sorry for hijacking the thread but I wanted to point something out to the fedora folk out here who have not yet heard this -- MeeGo intends to use rpm instead of deb for package management (yay !).
However, there's been a considerable amount of community bashing taking place out on the MeeGo mailing list by current Maemo community members who are partial to dpkg. A lot of the reasoning goes like this ....
...rpm has dependency issues ... ...rpm is slower than dpkg ... ...dpkg is more capable/stable/flexible than rpm ...
Now, the reason I bring this up here is, I assume most people here have come to rely on and love yum (which is more like the front-end to something that, IMHO, most users don't use these days -- rpm). As a package management system, I think rpm is just as capable (if not more) than dpkg. However, the discussion on MeeGo is turning out to be very biased, with even an active dpkg maintainer chiming in with an offer to help (professionally too !) work out any possible issues related to adopting dpkg[1].
As someone who would love to work on MeeGo without having to try various hacks[2] to get a dev setup on a Fedora box, and also someone who would like to simply bring some balance in the conversation I mentioned, I request people with more rpm knowledge than mine to join the MeeGo list and participate in the thread.
cheers, - steve
[1] http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000085.html
[2] http://blog.gbraad.nl/2009/11/maemo-5-sdk-on-fedora-12.html
Although it might have worked when that ^^^^ post was written, the present installer script of the maemo sdk is broken on fedora because it first checks for apt, and if that fails, just works with .tgz archives but still makes a lot of assumptions about the install environment:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34924&page=2
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 18:39 -0800, jack craig wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
What's your source for this?
My hw is Asus, EeePC 1000, 1GB ram, 40GB disk.
Anyone running FC (11 maybe?) on hw like this?
Running F12 on an EEEPC 1000 with 2GB RAM and 160GB disk. Works fine. I can even run Windows 7 under VirtualBox (slow but usable in an emergency).
poc
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 5:08 AM, steve steve@lonetwin.net wrote:
Hi,
On 02/16/2010 02:58 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
(1) Curious about why you say Moblin is dead? I missed the announcement!
(2) I'm writing this on a EeePC 1000HA (1GB, 160GB - but I'm using less than 20G) running F12 very nicely.
Moblin and Maemo are merging to produce one project using the best bits of each to produce a single distro
www.meego.com
Sorry for hijacking the thread but I wanted to point something out to the fedora folk out here who have not yet heard this -- MeeGo intends to use rpm instead of deb for package management (yay !).
If after developing for your favorite open source project for years the company "sponsoring" that project decided tomorrow that it was merging with another project and you would need to switch to a different packaging system I suspect your reaction would be different.
However, there's been a considerable amount of community bashing taking place out on the MeeGo mailing list by current Maemo community members who are partial to dpkg. A lot of the reasoning goes like this ....
...rpm has dependency issues ... ...rpm is slower than dpkg ... ...dpkg is more capable/stable/flexible than rpm ...
While it is true that there is a fair number of silly arguments about the technical merits of the change, the real problem is that there was no transparency in the decision process leading to the change. There was no explanation that I have seen even stating clearly why the change is being made. I'm guessing it is related to LSB issues and the decision to have The Linux Foundation direct the project.
Rather than adopting Fedora's package management system what Nokia has needed from the very beginning of maemo was to adopt Fedora's community model.
Even if this merger somehow turns out well for its target audience I think it is a very sad display of the mismanagement of an open source project.
John
inode0 wrote:
If after developing for your favorite open source project for years the company "sponsoring" that project decided tomorrow that it was merging with another project and you would need to switch to a different packaging system I suspect your reaction would be different.
Grown men, some of which have been Debian users/developers since its inception, are bickering over this non-issue. It's a very fun thread to follow on how not to handle a serious situation.
While it is true that there is a fair number of silly arguments about the technical merits of the change, the real problem is that there was no transparency in the decision process leading to the change. There was no explanation that I have seen even stating clearly why the change is being made. I'm guessing it is related to LSB issues and the decision to have The Linux Foundation direct the project.
It's been explained. The Moblin part of the merger is being used over the Maemo part. Simple as that.
Rather than adopting Fedora's package management system what Nokia has needed from the very beginning of maemo was to adopt Fedora's community model.
Everyone's tied up with RPM vs. Deb that they can't think straight. It's a big e-peen war that's not going to stop any time soon. The community will be at a loss due to the bike-shedding that will continue for months.
Even if this merger somehow turns out well for its target audience I think it is a very sad display of the mismanagement of an open source project.
MeeGo is a *brand-new* project run by two businesses that want to get started and produce a device with MeeGo in a few months. Should they have started at ground zero and asked "What glibc do you want? What shell do you want? What package system do you want?" That would have pushed them past 2010 to getting a 1.0 version out with the level of bickering already present.
On 02/15/2010 07:31 PM, Chris Tyler wrote:
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 18:39 -0800, jack craig wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
My hw is Asus, EeePC 1000, 1GB ram, 40GB disk.
Anyone running FC (11 maybe?) on hw like this?
Hi Jack,
(1) Curious about why you say Moblin is dead? I missed the announcement!
see maemo.org
(2) I'm writing this on a EeePC 1000HA (1GB, 160GB - but I'm using less than 20G) running F12 very nicely.
excellent! thx!
-Chris
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.com wrote:
inode0 wrote:
If after developing for your favorite open source project for years the company "sponsoring" that project decided tomorrow that it was merging with another project and you would need to switch to a different packaging system I suspect your reaction would be different.
Grown men, some of which have been Debian users/developers since its inception, are bickering over this non-issue. It's a very fun thread to follow on how not to handle a serious situation.
I think it is largely misdirected angst resulting from the poor community management practices that result in sudden changes like this dropping out of a corporate news release one morning.
While it is true that there is a fair number of silly arguments about the technical merits of the change, the real problem is that there was no transparency in the decision process leading to the change. There was no explanation that I have seen even stating clearly why the change is being made. I'm guessing it is related to LSB issues and the decision to have The Linux Foundation direct the project.
It's been explained. The Moblin part of the merger is being used over the Maemo part. Simple as that.
Did they flip a coin? That is the way it worked out, that isn't a reason.
Rather than adopting Fedora's package management system what Nokia has needed from the very beginning of maemo was to adopt Fedora's community model.
Everyone's tied up with RPM vs. Deb that they can't think straight. It's a big e-peen war that's not going to stop any time soon. The community will be at a loss due to the bike-shedding that will continue for months.
Sad but true and the result of Nokia not understanding how to work with an open source community.
Even if this merger somehow turns out well for its target audience I think it is a very sad display of the mismanagement of an open source project.
MeeGo is a *brand-new* project run by two businesses that want to get started and produce a device with MeeGo in a few months. Should they have started at ground zero and asked "What glibc do you want? What shell do you want? What package system do you want?" That would have pushed them past 2010 to getting a 1.0 version out with the level of bickering already present.
It if were brand new they could do whatever they pleased to create it. But it isn't brand new. And it isn't just two businesses who can tell their paid staff what to work on tomorrow. Does Fedora bicker over which shell it wants? Does Red Hat require the shell to be bash? Who makes that decision? This is getting as silly as the arguments over rpm now.
I think if we compare how Fedora's "corporate sponsor" has gone about helping to create, foster, and empower its community and compare that with the Nokia/maemo relationship there are valuable things to be learned.
John
inode0 wrote:
It if were brand new they could do whatever they pleased to create it. But it isn't brand new. And it isn't just two businesses who can tell their paid staff what to work on tomorrow.
How long has MeeGo be around for?
Does Fedora bicker over which shell it wants? Does Red Hat require the shell to be bash? Who makes that decision? This is getting as silly as the arguments over rpm now.
Precisely what I was driving at.
I think if we compare how Fedora's "corporate sponsor" has gone about helping to create, foster, and empower its community and compare that with the Nokia/maemo relationship there are valuable things to be learned.
I couldn't agree with you more, but there is hope in that Nokia is pairing up on the effort and wishes to expand (explore?).
Wow! i fired this email off when i got home last night and it stirred quite an exchange.
however, a bit of background will show my reaction is not a knee-jerk on my part, just the culmination of a path turning sour.
i used to work for danger before M$ bought it out. i enjoyed the mobile sidekick platform we provided despite its targeted youth market. its use for google/email on the go was Great! this is what i must have in my truck.
when i later got laid off last spring, i decided to look for a way to use Linux in a similar portable form factor. after some looking about, the hot setup seemed to be a netbook and moblin.
i chose moblin as i reasoned that backed by Intel (motivated by atom sales) should be a solid platform/open src steward to begin on. i selected a product direction of OBD to USB reasoning there may be a few gearheads in the fedora crowd that should also enjoy a window to their automotive computers.
the project kept me busy all summer while i looked for new work. however, i was less than overwhelmed by the moblin desktop.
in a landscape precious screen, they dedicate 1/3 to twitter/social networking(waste), 1/3 to the last jpg's i've looked at (yawn), and a paltry 1/3 for my desktop with icons & calendar space. 1/3 is not enough.
i really just want a mobile fedora; i have it at home & work, i use it, i like it.
as for meetoo, err, meego, its just another social centric os trying to compete with M$ products yet to be released. i hate a deployment that hides all the behind the scenes stuff i want to know about.
moblin died for me because it failed to live up to my needs.
my next posts will focus on adapting fc11 to a small form factor.
thx again to all that reported using fc on the eeepc.
as for meego, you and the kids have fun, i got work to do.
On 02/16/2010 12:12 AM, birger wrote:
On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 18:39 -0800, jack craig wrote:
Hi Folks,
I regret to report that Moblin, my hope for a mobile linux, is dead.
As someone alse already pointed out, Moblin is not dead.
What is happening is that Moblin (intel-based) and Maemo (Arm-based) are merging to create MeeGo.
MeeGo is supposed to have common lower layers, and alternative UX (User eXperience) layers. There will be UX layers for cell phones, tablets, netbooks, stationary media phones, and whatnot.
MeeGo will use rpm as packaging mechanism. It will run X, have gtk support, but main GUI SDK will be QT.
Given that it should support intel and arm and be based on rpm, is there some way fedora and MeeGo could interact? Could a platform with Intel and Nokia as sponsors cooperate with the huge Fedora community with RedHat as sponsor? Could Fedora become a development platform for both? It would certainly help defragment linux a bit.
MeeGo is set to become the biggest linux on mobile devices if Nokia mean what they say: According to Ari Jaaksi, VP Nokia “We will put all our force behind making MeeGo THE operating system” and “Nokia will ship tons of MeeGo devices, Intel, too. And others will use MeeGo in their devices. It is open, free, powerful and compatible.”
That said, I prefer running Fedora on my netbooks. I actually think there is no problem at all running a full gnome on a netbook. I usually remove the panels and install cairo-dock. I also make a few gui tweaks that I am used to doing on older hardware (getting rid of gradients in window borders and so on). Seriously, a netbook is more powerful than what I used to run linux on just 1-2 years ago.
birger
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.com wrote:
inode0 wrote:
It if were brand new they could do whatever they pleased to create it. But it isn't brand new. And it isn't just two businesses who can tell their paid staff what to work on tomorrow.
How long has MeeGo be around for?
This is semantics. Merging and renaming two existing things makes something new out of something that already exists. There wouldn't be any problem if it weren't for yanking an existing community from something they have been contributing to for years into something else with a press release.
Does Fedora bicker over which shell it wants? Does Red Hat require the shell to be bash? Who makes that decision? This is getting as silly as the arguments over rpm now.
Precisely what I was driving at.
But Fedora doesn't bicker about this. Red Hat doesn't mandate this. Fedora as a community makes the decision. So why are we discussing it at all? Having transparent governance and community decision making does not mean bickering about such things.
I think if we compare how Fedora's "corporate sponsor" has gone about helping to create, foster, and empower its community and compare that with the Nokia/maemo relationship there are valuable things to be learned.
I couldn't agree with you more, but there is hope in that Nokia is pairing up on the effort and wishes to expand (explore?).
This sentiment I think everyone shared in the beginning. Give Nokia time to learn its way. But they began with old mistakes (core controlled by them and the community contributing on the edges, sound familiar?) and continue with a governance model that guarantees a dysfunctional community that at each sudden jerk feels used. Hope may spring eternal but eventually people get discouraged.
John
inode0 wrote:
This is semantics. Merging and renaming two existing things makes something new out of something that already exists. There wouldn't be any problem if it weren't for yanking an existing community from something they have been contributing to for years into something else with a press release.
You and I just think differently. People think differently. Thank goodness.
But Fedora doesn't bicker about this. Red Hat doesn't mandate this. Fedora as a community makes the decision. So why are we discussing it at all? Having transparent governance and community decision making does not mean bickering about such things.
The problem is communication. With Maemo there was none. I can't say much for Moblin as I haven't been involved at all.
This sentiment I think everyone shared in the beginning. Give Nokia time to learn its way. But they began with old mistakes (core controlled by them and the community contributing on the edges, sound familiar?) and continue with a governance model that guarantees a dysfunctional community that at each sudden jerk feels used. Hope may spring eternal but eventually people get discouraged.
Yes, they are starting out the "same" but you should really Google or read through some recent (as of this month) posts by @nokia folk that have posted road maps and such that detail an overhaul of what they want to accomplish. I'm holding out hope they follow that plan. You're free to think Nokia won't change.
On 02/16/2010 09:16 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
Yes, they are starting out the "same" but you should really Google or read through some recent (as of this month) posts by @nokia folk that
i did! it was full of resentful/fearful n900 & n800 users fearing orphanages for their Nokia hw.
talking heads can blabber all the marketing speak they want, but its the end user/developer whose opinion matters to me...
i am not putting my trust in Nokia. for that matter, i'll be real leery of trusting Intel again, so much for stewardship! Not!
have posted road maps and such that detail an overhaul of what they want to accomplish. I'm holding out hope they follow that plan. You're free to think Nokia won't change.
jack craig wrote:
i did! it was full of resentful/fearful n900& n800 users fearing orphanages for their Nokia hw.
talking heads can blabber all the marketing speak they want, but its the end user/developer whose opinion matters to me...
i am not putting my trust in Nokia. for that matter, i'll be real leery of trusting Intel again, so much for stewardship! Not!
Who are you going to turn to then?
Fall in line, buy an iPhone, and be a good little boy?
HELL No! Trading one flakey vendor for a closed vendor is no plan.
I am going to track down best practice for shoehorning fc11 to my netbook.
FC is a known quantity (w/quality); one i have relied on with success for years.
besides, they have these great user communities! ;)
On 02/16/2010 09:27 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
jack craig wrote:
i did! it was full of resentful/fearful n900& n800 users fearing orphanages for their Nokia hw.
talking heads can blabber all the marketing speak they want, but its the end user/developer whose opinion matters to me...
i am not putting my trust in Nokia. for that matter, i'll be real leery of trusting Intel again, so much for stewardship! Not!
Who are you going to turn to then?
Fall in line, buy an iPhone, and be a good little boy?
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Michael Cronenworth mike@cchtml.com wrote:
inode0 wrote:
But Fedora doesn't bicker about this. Red Hat doesn't mandate this. Fedora as a community makes the decision. So why are we discussing it at all? Having transparent governance and community decision making does not mean bickering about such things.
The problem is communication. With Maemo there was none. I can't say much for Moblin as I haven't been involved at all.
We are in the same position here. I haven't followed Moblin either and haven't said much if anything about the Moblin community. I've been a long time internet tablet user, both the N770 and N800 and do follow what is going on in the Maemo community. And I agree communication is a big part of the problem but I don't see how that will ever change when the governance that matters is done outside the Maemo community.
This sentiment I think everyone shared in the beginning. Give Nokia time to learn its way. But they began with old mistakes (core controlled by them and the community contributing on the edges, sound familiar?) and continue with a governance model that guarantees a dysfunctional community that at each sudden jerk feels used. Hope may spring eternal but eventually people get discouraged.
Yes, they are starting out the "same" but you should really Google or read through some recent (as of this month) posts by @nokia folk that have posted road maps and such that detail an overhaul of what they want to accomplish. I'm holding out hope they follow that plan. You're free to think Nokia won't change.
Actually I think Nokia will change. If it doesn't the community it relies on will eventually unravel. I just worry that the change will not be good if it comes after the community gives up.
John
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:12:01 +0100, birger wrote: [....]
That said, I prefer running Fedora on my netbooks. I actually think there is no problem at all running a full gnome on a netbook. I usually remove the panels and install cairo-dock. I also make a few gui tweaks that I am used to doing on older hardware (getting rid of gradients in window borders and so on). Seriously, a netbook is more powerful than what I used to run linux on just 1-2 years ago.
I also prefer Fedora -- and currently have Omega Linux running of an EeePC 701, which is about the smallest and slowest of netbooks. Omega seems to me to be very effectively "Fedora For Netbooks" -- and that makes me wonder, after reading all this thread so far, whether I need bother paying attention to MeeGo.
Am I missing something??
On Wed, 2010-02-17 at 22:03 +0000, BeartoothHbsk wrote:
I also prefer Fedora -- and currently have Omega Linux running of an EeePC 701, which is about the smallest and slowest of netbooks. Omega seems to me to be very effectively "Fedora For Netbooks" -- and that makes me wonder, after reading all this thread so far, whether I need bother paying attention to MeeGo.
I have had a quick look at the moblin user interface on a netbook (since you can install it from the fedora repos), and I quickly went back to gnome/cairo-dock.
I think the other part of the merger is far more interesting.
After all; Who has seen a moblin device? Where can you buy one? Maemo devices have been around for years. It was originally a tablet OS for a range of Nokia tablets, but the last one (N900) is a cell phone. A Nokia cellphone running a real linux with X-windows and gnome. The user interface is of course completely different, but Nokia did the right thing. They developed it as a new interface on top of gnome and gave it to the gnome foundation. The next generation (MeeGo) will be redone in QT instead. Not sure I like that move but it is understandable since Nokia owns QT, and they now have QT up on Symbian as well. I would love to get a N900 so I could have any linux app up and running on the 480x800 display. Perhaps I wouldn't need a netbook anymore.
With Nokias acquisition of QT and their open-sourcing of Symbian Nokia is really trying to make open source work. Sadly they seem to have problems relating to their community. Finding out how they have to restructure themselves to interface with a community. I would expect Intel to have some of the same problems. At least Nokia has seen what a community can do. The N900 lacked MMS just like the iPhone when it was launched. The community fixed it for the N900 in 3 months. I believe it took apple more than a year.
Anyway. MeeGo is set to become a rather high-volume platform backed by two big vendors of devices in a new market (for linux). I think that is exciting. Seeing Nokia and Intel trying to merge their open source efforts is even more exciting.
I really hope they can learn a few lessons from RedHat about how to grow a community and integrate with it. Perhaps even merge the communities and share Fedora as the community platform. After all, neither of them are likely to intrude on RedHats turf... MeeGo will never be positioned as a server or desktop operating system. :-) Getting some Nokia, Intel and TrollTech programmers aboard wouldn't hurt, would it?
So: Welcome, MeeGo. May you ship on millions of devices. :-)
birger
jack craig wrote:
On 02/16/2010 09:16 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
Yes, they are starting out the "same" but you should really Google or read through some recent (as of this month) posts by @nokia folk that
i did! it was full of resentful/fearful n900 & n800 users fearing orphanages for their Nokia hw.
That's not necessarily a trivial issue.
talking heads can blabber all the marketing speak they want, but its the end user/developer whose opinion matters to me...
i am not putting my trust in Nokia. for that matter, i'll be real leery of trusting Intel again, so much for stewardship! Not!
I read in the press that ARM will be supported. Really? Interesting path for Intel if true.
have posted road maps and such that detail an overhaul of what they want to accomplish. I'm holding out hope they follow that plan. You're free to think Nokia won't change.
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:03:29PM +0000, BeartoothHbsk wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:12:01 +0100, birger wrote: [....]
That said, I prefer running Fedora on my netbooks. I actually think there is no problem at all running a full gnome on a netbook. I usually remove the panels and install cairo-dock. I also make a few gui tweaks that I am used to doing on older hardware (getting rid of gradients in window borders and so on). Seriously, a netbook is more powerful than what I used to run linux on just 1-2 years ago.
I also prefer Fedora -- and currently have Omega Linux running of an EeePC 701, which is about the smallest and slowest of netbooks. Omega seems to me to be very effectively "Fedora For Netbooks" -- and that makes me wonder, after reading all this thread so far, whether I need bother paying attention to MeeGo.
Am I missing something??
I also run Fedora 12 on a EeePC 701SD, and yes, it works just fine. The only difference Omega brings is automatically included software that's legally encumbered.
I think MeeGo and other mobile software (like the Fedora Moblin desktop environment) get more or less interesting depending on you like to use your netbook. My wife wants a small station in the kitchen she can use for weather reports, quick web browsing, and the occasional transfer of music files from our network share to her music device. She prefers that it mimic her normal desktop environment, ergo Fedora 12 works fine.