2016-11-15 13:45 GMT+01:00 Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org>:
On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Andreas Tunek
<andreas.tunek(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> 2016-11-14 22:26 GMT+01:00 Josh Boyer <jwboyer(a)fedoraproject.org>:
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Andreas Tunek <andreas.tunek(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>> 2016-11-14 14:01 GMT+01:00 Stephen Gallagher <sgallagh(a)redhat.com>:
>>>> On 11/13/2016 01:46 PM, Ms Sanchez wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/11/16 14:33, Stephen Gallagher wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to address this specifically, I am referring to Apple's
penchant for
>>>>>> stuffing their machines with hardware from vendors that don't
play well with
>>>>>> open-source (for example, switching to wifi-only devices and
shipping Broadcom
>>>>>> chipsets with no open-source drivers). Then also playing games
with their
>>>>>> bootloader system so that we have to go through lots of hoops to
trick it into
>>>>>> letting us install.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple's entire business model is predicated on the idea that
they know best and
>>>>>> you should only ever run software on their devices that they have
provided to
>>>>>> you... at a substantial percentage for themselves. They do
whatever they can at
>>>>>> a technical level to enable this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Note: I'm not attempting to vilify Apple here. Their devices
are usually
>>>>>> sturdy, well-constructed and certainly attractive. They are
however a company
>>>>>> trying to make money and they have a certain business model that
is largely
>>>>>> dependent on *not* enabling us.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Apple's business model is based on selling you a golden cage.
They are entitled
>>>>> to do that and we are entitled to dislike it.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly. My point is that I don't feel that we are necessarily
responsible for
>>>> working around their antagonism either. Yes, it would be nice if Fedora
>>>> supported all hardware ever made. But the simple truth is that Apple
tries very
>>>> hard to make it *not* work. They have a vested interest in that.
>>>>
>>>> So I assert that while support for Apple hardware is desirable, I
don't believe
>>>> that the lack of it should prevent us from shipping Fedora for all the
other
>>>> hardware that we do support.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you stop supporting certain hardware right before release due to a
>>> regression bug you set a very troublesome precedent. It not only means
>>> that the work people did developing and testing the features where
>>> wasted, it also means that Fedora can toss out any feature at any time
>>> if there is a bug. And that is not a very stable OS to use and
>>> contribute to.
>>
>> If the features were developed and tested during the creation of the
>> release, why would they fail criteria at the last minute? You are
>> making a good argument to not throw away something because "people
>> don't like it", but in the context of this discussion there seems to
>> be a distinct lack of resources actually doing the work. It may be
>> perfectly justifiable to do a release anyway under that premise.
>>
>
> AFAIK, you have been able to install Fedora on Intel Macs since 2008
> (that was when I first tried). To not be able to install Fedora on
> (Intel) Macs is a regression.
Yes. Nobody is arguing that it isn't a bug.
>> Also, there is a large difference between shipping a release that
>> works on a majority of hardware with the goal of fixing it where it
>> doesn't after, and "stop supporting certain hardware".
>>
>
> How do you fix it if you can't install the release? Do you make a new
> release with all the testing again (to make sure you do not have other
> regression bugs)?
Anaconda has updates.img, which might be usable post-release. Barring
that, there are the update respins that other community members do.
Pretending those don't exist seems silly.
>> Lastly, support is a very loaded word, particularly in the context of
>> a community driven project. We actually do not have an x86 equivalent
>> of the ARM supported-boards list, so it's completely random as to what
>> laptops and desktops are tested and prioritized. That might be
>> something to focus on going forward.
>
> It has been in the release critera that you should be able to install
> on macs and it has worked for a very long time. If you are going to
> remove that support you should really let people know in advance (not
> a week before release).
Again, nobody is saying "remove support". We're saying "fix it
later".
How do you "fix it later"? Would that be a new image?
>> Also, most hardware support is handled by Linux which has a much
>> bigger community than Fedora. But this issue seems to be in Anaconda
>> which is only used by Fedora (and derivatives?). Other OS installers
>> does not seem to have this problem (AFAIK).
>
> OK?
>
> josh
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