The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD.
Options include:
1) One/some of the desktops
F19 DVD currently includes - GNOME - KDE - XFCE - LXDE - Sugar - MATE (new in F19) - Cinnamon (new in F19)
2) The web server environment
Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails)
3) The developer & content creator workstation
Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on.
Opinions?
Bill
Yes I noticed that. One possibility would to so a separate server based distro like Ubuntu does, and maybe a developer one too ? Just a thought.
On 1 May 2013 21:03, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD.
Options include:
- One/some of the desktops
F19 DVD currently includes
- GNOME
- KDE
- XFCE
- LXDE
- Sugar
- MATE (new in F19)
- Cinnamon (new in F19)
- The web server environment
Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails)
- The developer & content creator workstation
Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on.
Opinions?
Bill
devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD.
Options include:
- One/some of the desktops
F19 DVD currently includes
- GNOME
- KDE
- XFCE
- LXDE
- Sugar
- MATE (new in F19)
- Cinnamon (new in F19)
- The web server environment
Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails)
- The developer & content creator workstation
Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on.
Opinions?
Bill
devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
In regards to MATE + Cinnamon:
MATE + Cinnamon fit on F18 x86_64 DVD but not the i686 DVD. The i686 and x86_64 have different sizes (one reason was due to including the PAE and non PAE kernels).
That being said Cinnamon IS broken in F19 but it is only 2 packages on top of Gnome 3.. cinnamon and muffin. We expect to have it working by release and upstream is working on a fix, in fact I made some progress last night and have Cinnamon 2D mode working.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=920320
Lots of other distros are dropping Cinnamon because of this. Let's not be THAT distro.
Also after spending a lot of time the last few days trying to compose the MATE liveCD a lot of unneeded dependencies were being pulled.
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Just my experience over the last few days.
Dan
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/
Bill
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/
Bill
devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11.
42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204 libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64
========
Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Let's use evolution.
=========
8847388 community-mysql-server.x86_64 <-- ??
============
gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch <-- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something?
=========
Quite a few devel packages as well.
Dan
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:
gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch <-- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something?
It's entirely possible that someone who is downloading the DVD image intends to install on a machine that doesn't have a consistent network connection. In that case, offline documentation is very useful.
-- Ben Cotton
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 16:48:28 -0400, Ben Cotton bcotton@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Dan Mashal dan.mashal@gmail.com wrote:
gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch <-- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something?
It's entirely possible that someone who is downloading the DVD image intends to install on a machine that doesn't have a consistent network connection. In that case, offline documentation is very useful.
I think keeping docs on the DVD is useful, and shouldn't summarily be dropped.
Is there an easy way to see where there are multiple packages being brought in where only one is needed to satisfy a particular dependency?
(batching a couple of replies)
Stephen Gallagher (sgallagh@redhat.com) said:
I notice that both mariadb-server and community-mysql-server are on the list. Given that FESCo decided some time ago that the "preferred" version was going to be MariaDB (but that we were going to permit MySQL to remain in the repos under other maintainership), I'd say we should drop the community-mysql packages from the DVD. This should save us a respectable bit of space.
Done - with that and the 1.8 JDK removed, that leaves... ~270MB to find to remove somewhere.
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
Why is wayland being included? Last I checked we are still using X11.
42596 wayland-devel.x86_64 21216 libwayland-client-devel.x86_64 14860 libwayland-cursor.x86_64 7204 libwayland-cursor-devel.x86_64
It's a library protocol apps can use for testing. Also... it amounts to 0.02% of the space we were over in TC1.
Thunderbird is new? Drop it. Let's use evolution.
That would be up to the Cinnamon maintainer, who is the one that is including it.
gnome-getting-started-docs.noarch <-- is this really needed? Why doesn't Gnome 3 get docs online or something?
GNOME has always included offline docs/help - I don't see why that should suddenly change.
Quite a few devel packages as well.
Well, yes - as said, the DVD includes a developer workstation install.
Bill
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
(batching a couple of replies)
That would be up to the Cinnamon maintainer, who is the one that is including it.
As cinnamon comaintainer and MATE maintainer I'll switch them both to evolution today.
Dan
On 05/01/2013 04:21 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
As a maintainer of java-1.8.0-openjdk, I am sad to see it get dropped, but given the circumstances, this makes sense. It's a preview after all.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. http://paste.fedoraproject.org/9849/36743327/
Would a list of "source" package (ie, size of all binary package produced by a single source package) work better since we can examine bigger chunks at a time?
Could we also get a list of all packages on the DVD sorted by size? Applying Amdahl's law will be more effective with more bigger packages.
Cheers, Omair
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 16:21:09 -0400, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
Is this same issue affecting live images? Should we be blacklisting java-1.8 and msql-community on them as well?
Bruno Wolff III (bruno@wolff.to) said:
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 16:21:09 -0400, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
Is this same issue affecting live images? Should we be blacklisting java-1.8 and msql-community on them as well?
Didn't appear to be, from a look at the desktop image.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
Bill, could you paste it again? Seems like the discussion steered different way but it's really the time to do some painful decision what to drop now, as Beta freeze is upon us.
Jaroslav
Bill
devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 08:38 -0400, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Dan Mashal (dan.mashal@gmail.com) said:
I think we should look at package dependencies. It seems that lots of unnecessary packages are being pulled when composing media.
Here's everything new in the F19 DVD, sorted by size. I've dropped java-1.8.0-openjdk in the kickstart already, but that won't be enough.
Bill, could you paste it again? Seems like the discussion steered different way but it's really the time to do some painful decision what to drop now, as Beta freeze is upon us.
FWIW, we'll likely run TC4 today or tomorrow, so we'll be able to see the impact of any changes made at that point. I'll ask dgilmore to make sure to use the latest comps.
Bill Nottingham (notting@redhat.com) said:
The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD.
Options include:
- One/some of the desktops
F19 DVD currently includes
- GNOME
- KDE
- XFCE
- LXDE
- Sugar
- MATE (new in F19)
- Cinnamon (new in F19)
- The web server environment
Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails)
- The developer & content creator workstation
Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on.
Opinions?
For those desperately curious where the space went...
Bill
On Wed, 2013-05-01 at 17:44 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
REMOVED PACKAGES NAME SIZE authconfig-gtk 106120
I am slightly worried about this removal. This means you won't be able to configure remote authentication methods with a GUI. Should it be added to comps somewhere?
On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 01:00 +0200, Tomas Mraz wrote:
On Wed, 2013-05-01 at 17:44 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
REMOVED PACKAGES NAME SIZE authconfig-gtk 106120
I am slightly worried about this removal. This means you won't be able to configure remote authentication methods with a GUI. Should it be added to comps somewhere?
I suspect it's to do with the firstboot -> initial-setup/gnome-initial-setup change. The thing to do would be to check if initial-setup / gnome-initial-setup can properly configure remote auth, without using authconfig-gtk. If they can't, that might be a problem we need to solve.
That's just me reasoning it out, though, I haven't actually checked. Still, the thing to do would definitely be to grab Beta TC2 and do a test install and see if you can actually get remote auth working. We have not looked at that as part of validation testing yet.
On 05/01/2013 09:03 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
The F19 DVD is currently *way* over size. (i686: 417MB, x86_64: 311MB). That's almost certainly more than can be fixed by trimming around the edges; we need to remove actual functionality that's on the DVD.
Options include:
- One/some of the desktops
F19 DVD currently includes
- GNOME
- KDE
- XFCE
- LXDE
- Sugar
- MATE (new in F19)
- Cinnamon (new in F19)
- The web server environment
Contains web server and web server runtimes (PHP, JBoss, Mongo, perl, python, rails)
- The developer & content creator workstation
Contains the web server stuff above, Eclipse, developer tools, designer tools, Fedora packaging tools, and so on.
Opinions?
Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all? Do we distribute DVDs? If so couldn't we use a newer DVD standard? I can't see any users wanting to burn DVDs rather than using USB sticks etc.
I'd be more inclined to align stuff at 1GB, 4GB, 8GB to fit in USB media.
Larger media is a bit questionable anyway, since it's means more stuff gets out of date.
I notice for F18, each particular desktop spin seems to fit in 1GB: http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/live-respins/ All the source requires DVD-9 (8.5GB), but again that's of marginal value.
cheers, Pádraig.
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 02:37:00 +0100, Pádraig Brady P@draigBrady.com wrote:
Why are we tied to DVD-5, 4.7GB (4.3GiB) at all?
I think the target is actually 4 GiB for file system reasons. It makes downloading to some older files systems possible.
Do we distribute DVDs? If so couldn't we use a newer DVD standard? I can't see any users wanting to burn DVDs rather than using USB sticks etc.
This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change.
-
Aaron Gray -
Adam Williamson -
Ben Cotton -
Bill Nottingham -
Bruno Wolff III -
Dan Mashal -
Jaroslav Reznik -
Omair Majid -
Pádraig Brady -
Tomas Mraz