[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
Mike FABIAN <mfabian(a)redhat.com> changed:
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--- Comment #25 from Mike FABIAN <mfabian(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Ankit Patel from comment #24)
>
> As one can notice, in my output "hi_IN" is first preference, while "en_IN"
> in Fabian's. I think it's mostly because of #comment 2, #comment 3 and
> #comment 4.
Yes, I used langtable 0.0.26 which switched the priority of Hindi
and English compared to langtable < 0.0.26.
> But my original question remains unanswered? How did you decide earlier that
> "hi_IN" was the most common? OR How did you decide now that "en_IN" is the
> most common one? Did you do any research/analysis or gathered any data
> points to make this decision?
According to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India
Hindi has 258-422 million speakers which is more than any
other of the Indian langauges.
I did this for all languages supported by Fedora, looking at
which language has the most speakers for a given territory.
But I can of course change that if users tell me they want
something different.
For Switzerland the default is German only because the number of
German speakers there is greater than the number of French speakers.
What else could I do? There is no common language for all of
Switzerland.
But for India, English seems to be not an unreasonable choice because
it is commonly used everywhere in India. Therefore, I think Siddhesh’s
argument in comment#0 is understandable. Choosing English as the default
is maybe more “neutral” for India than any of the Indian languages.
In Future, it may be nice to make that more precise, i.e. add
more data for more precise locations to langtable to make it possible
to make Marathi the default in Pune for example.
We don’t have to use that information of course, but it would be nice
if langtable had that sort of information as well (which language is
used mostly in which parts of countries). If such information were
available in langtable, we could offer German as the default for
Zürich in Switzerland than and French for Geneva in Switzerland,
Marathi for locations in Maharashtra, ..., if we want to.
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9 years, 9 months
[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
Ankit Patel <ankit(a)redhat.com> changed:
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--- Comment #24 from Ankit Patel <ankit(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Mike FABIAN from comment #23)
> >>> langtable.list_locales(territoryId='IN')
> ['en_IN.UTF-8', 'hi_IN.UTF-8', 'bn_IN.UTF-8', 'te_IN.UTF-8', 'mr_IN.UTF-8',
> 'ta_IN.UTF-8', 'ur_IN.UTF-8', 'gu_IN.UTF-8', 'kn_IN.UTF-8', 'ml_IN.UTF-8',
> 'or_IN.UTF-8', 'pa_IN.UTF-8', 'as_IN.UTF-8', 'mai_IN.UTF-8', 'sat_IN.UTF-8',
> 'ks_IN.UTF-8', 'ks_IN.UTF-8@devanagari', 'kok_IN.UTF-8', 'sd_IN.UTF-8',
> 'sd_IN.UTF-8@devanagari', 'doi_IN.UTF-8', 'mni_IN.UTF-8', 'brx_IN.UTF-8',
> 'bho_IN.UTF-8', 'bo_IN.UTF-8', 'hne_IN.UTF-8', 'mag_IN.UTF-8', 'ar_IN.UTF-8']
> >>>
>
Alright, so I have a slightly different result on my Fedora 20
>>> langtable.list_locales(territoryId='IN')
['hi_IN.UTF-8', 'en_IN.UTF-8', 'bn_IN.UTF-8', 'te_IN.UTF-8', 'mr_IN.UTF-8',
'ta_IN.UTF-8', 'ur_IN.UTF-8', 'gu_IN.UTF-8', 'kn_IN.UTF-8', 'ml_IN.UTF-8',
'or_IN.UTF-8', 'pa_IN.UTF-8', 'as_IN.UTF-8', 'mai_IN.UTF-8', 'sat_IN.UTF-8',
'ks_IN.UTF-8', 'ks_IN.UTF-8@devanagari', 'kok_IN.UTF-8', 'sd_IN.UTF-8',
'sd_IN.UTF-8@devanagari', 'doi_IN.UTF-8', 'mni_IN.UTF-8', 'brx_IN.UTF-8',
'bho_IN.UTF-8', 'bo_IN.UTF-8', 'hne_IN.UTF-8', 'mag_IN.UTF-8', 'ar_IN.UTF-8']
As one can notice, in my output "hi_IN" is first preference, while "en_IN" in
Fabian's. I think it's mostly because of #comment 2, #comment 3 and #comment 4.
But my original question remains unanswered? How did you decide earlier that
"hi_IN" was the most common? OR How did you decide now that "en_IN" is the most
common one? Did you do any research/analysis or gathered any data points to
make this decision?
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9 years, 9 months
[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
Mike FABIAN <mfabian(a)redhat.com> changed:
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--- Comment #23 from Mike FABIAN <mfabian(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Ankit Patel from comment #17)
> 1) What's the purpose of this component (langtable)?
> --> As per README file,
>
> """"""""
> Purpose of this package
> =======================
>
> langtable is used to guess reasonable defaults for locale, keyboard,
> territory, …, if part of that information is already known. For
> example, guess the territory and the keyboard layout if the language
> is known or guess the language and keyboard layout if the territory is
> already known.
> """"""""
Anaconda uses it to list the possible locales for a language
or the possible locales for a territory. Like this:
$ python3
Python 3.3.2 (default, Jun 30 2014, 17:20:03)
[GCC 4.8.3 20140624 (Red Hat 4.8.3-1)] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import langtable
>>> langtable.list_locales(languageId='ta')
['ta_IN.UTF-8', 'ta_LK.UTF-8']
>>> langtable.list_locales(territoryId='IN')
['en_IN.UTF-8', 'hi_IN.UTF-8', 'bn_IN.UTF-8', 'te_IN.UTF-8', 'mr_IN.UTF-8',
'ta_IN.UTF-8', 'ur_IN.UTF-8', 'gu_IN.UTF-8', 'kn_IN.UTF-8', 'ml_IN.UTF-8',
'or_IN.UTF-8', 'pa_IN.UTF-8', 'as_IN.UTF-8', 'mai_IN.UTF-8', 'sat_IN.UTF-8',
'ks_IN.UTF-8', 'ks_IN.UTF-8@devanagari', 'kok_IN.UTF-8', 'sd_IN.UTF-8',
'sd_IN.UTF-8@devanagari', 'doi_IN.UTF-8', 'mni_IN.UTF-8', 'brx_IN.UTF-8',
'bho_IN.UTF-8', 'bo_IN.UTF-8', 'hne_IN.UTF-8', 'mag_IN.UTF-8', 'ar_IN.UTF-8']
>>>
The results are ordered according to what seems most likely.
For example when asking what locales are possible for German,
one gets:
>>> langtable.list_locales(languageId='de')
['de_DE.UTF-8', 'de_AT.UTF-8', 'de_CH.UTF-8', 'de_BE.UTF-8', 'de_LU.UTF-8']
>>>
The first is de_DE.UTF-8 because Germany (DE) is the biggest German
speaking country.
If one knows that the country is Switzerland (CH) one gets:
>>> langtable.list_locales(territoryId='CH')
['de_CH.UTF-8', 'fr_CH.UTF-8', 'it_CH.UTF-8', 'wae_CH.UTF-8']
>>>
So German is the most common language in Switzerland followed by French.
If one knows both the country and the language the result is
often unique, but not always:
>>> langtable.list_locales(languageId='sr', territoryId='RS')
['sr_RS.UTF-8', 'sr_RS.UTF-8@latin']
>>>
So for Serbian in Serbia we have two results because Serbian
can be written both in Cyrillic script (sr_RS.UTF-8) or in
Latin script (sr_RS.UTF-8@latin).
To make Tamil the default if the installation is done in Tamilnadu,
probably an API extension is needed.
We need to check what geoip actually returns when the IP is from
Tamilnadu. Does it return the state? Or a city? Or latitude and
longitude? All of this? The country “IN” alone is not enough to
decide. So if geoip returns more information than just “IN”, I can
probably add data to langtable and extend the API a bit to use this
additional information to get a more precise result of the most common
locale for that location.
But with the current state of langtable, we have have to choose
which language should be the default one for all of India.
The other languages returned by langtable.list_locales(territoryId='IN')
are still shown by Anaconda right next to the first one in the list,
but the first one is selected by default.
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[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
Nilamdyuti <ngoswami(a)redhat.com> changed:
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--- Comment #22 from Nilamdyuti <ngoswami(a)redhat.com> ---
In my view, an unnecessary fuss is being made out of nothing by debating over a
simple language selection. How does it matter which language is the default
selected language in the very first screen of Anaconda? Is it something
unchangeable or something that will break the system? No matter which language
is the default selection, a user can always select his preferred language from
the language selection list and the entire installation process will continue
in that particular language. Moreover, all the languages have their English
names alongwith their localized ones in the list, so a person irrespective of
any language or region can select the desired language. Above all, if this
really simple step of selecting the desired language is so painful, annoying
and an astronomically time consuming step and a language other than English as
the default selection hurts you so much, then I have got nothing to say.
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[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
--- Comment #21 from Amit Shah <amit.shah(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Rajesh Ranjan from comment #19)
> So for the usability purpose whole world should use one language as default?
> You want to say like this. This analogy can be elongated to say that I can
> feel bad when I see anything other than English anywhere it annoys me. But
> have you ever cared a person who feel annoyed when s/he sees English.
>
> Please Try to understand, actually your suggestions kills usability. Please
> try to understand that treating English just like other language gives us
> (Fedora) an added advantage of supporting the diversity of the world at its
> fullest and as a Fedora contributor anybody should be proud of it whether
> one belongs to English, or Czech or Hindi or Tamil and any language.
>
> Otherwise don;t make default selection, let the user select, a level playing
> field for all user.
I'd like to discuss, but this bug seems hardly the place for this discussion.
Especially I'd like to read your responses to my questions / suggestions in
comment 13.
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[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
--- Comment #20 from Siddhesh Poyarekar <spoyarek(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Ankit Patel from comment #17)
I'll answer some as bug reporter.
> 2) Is #comment 0 really indicate a Bug or RFE?
I filed it as a bug, or more as a regression from F18.
> 3) What was the prior research/analysis?
Releases before F19 selected English by default and allowed the user to choose
an alternate language. On the contrary the F21 installer selected Hindi and
allowed the user to choose an alternate language. While the collection of
Indian languages near the top is an awesome improvement, the default selection
seems arbitrarily chosen.
> 4) What should we analyze (or consider) now?
> --> Inputs from reportees OR
> --> bug watchers OR
> --> language experts OR
> --> usability experts OR
> --> combination of all these OR
> --> the actual data points that could be available?
I don't know and here is where the need for better data asserts itself.
Changing the default should have better data supporting the decision and that
data ought to be made visible. If analysis shows that Hindi is indeed a better
default for India then by all means, select it as a default.
(In reply to Rajesh Ranjan from comment #18)
> Sorry to say, but there are reasons for the same Siddhesh, may be not
> intentional but certainly unintentional! Still computer is under the reach
> of elites only, that is why the situation is like this in India.
... and laguage is not the barrier, it is the cost of a computer; you're
conflating two completely different things. In any case this is not a suitable
discussion for this bug report.
> Fedora should try to speak the language people is speaking in the region.
> And so for Maharashtra it should come Marathi first!
The change needs to be supported by reliable data.
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[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
--- Comment #19 from Rajesh Ranjan <rranjan(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Amit Shah from comment #15)
> A safe default is a usability issue, rather than anything else.
>
> If I travel to the Czech republic, and suddenly if the default language
> selection is Czech, I'll be annoyed at an extra step to go before I proceed
> with the install.
>
> Similarly, a person traveling from Chennai to Pune for a FAD event (say)
> gets Marathi as default, he'll be annoyed as well.
>
> A safe default just ensures good UI and usability, rather than promoting any
> regional or language-based preferences (and least of all, shoving them down
> users' throats).
So for the usability purpose whole world should use one language as default?
You want to say like this. This analogy can be elongated to say that I can feel
bad when I see anything other than English anywhere it annoys me. But have you
ever cared a person who feel annoyed when s/he sees English.
Please Try to understand, actually your suggestions kills usability. Please try
to understand that treating English just like other language gives us (Fedora)
an added advantage of supporting the diversity of the world at its fullest and
as a Fedora contributor anybody should be proud of it whether one belongs to
English, or Czech or Hindi or Tamil and any language.
Otherwise don;t make default selection, let the user select, a level playing
field for all user.
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[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
--- Comment #18 from Rajesh Ranjan <rranjan(a)redhat.com> ---
(In reply to Siddhesh Poyarekar from comment #16)
> > There are comments like the above ^^ that says why they need Hindi. btw, I
> > never requested Hindi to be default, but certainly except for elites of
> > India, Hindi is better choice than English.
>
> It is borderline insulting to suggest that those who prefer English
> environments are elitists. I don't see why you need to use such language in
> a bug report.
Sorry to say, but there are reasons for the same Siddhesh, may be not
intentional but certainly unintentional! Still computer is under the reach of
elites only, that is why the situation is like this in India.
Just preferring English environments can not be termed of elitists nature, but
not accepting default locale on the basis of region can be seen by the large
volume of people of the region (may be they are not current user, but who knows
that they won't use in future) as elitist and so I am writing here to make
Fedora pro-people. Please try to understand, what one can gain by just pushing
English as default, I don't think anything except the person who wants English
need to do a click more.
Fedora should try to speak the language people is speaking in the region. And
so for Maharashtra it should come Marathi first!
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9 years, 9 months
[Fedora-i18n-bugs] [Bug 1133188] Select English as the default language for India geolocation
by Red Hat Bugzilla
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1133188
Ankit Patel <ankit(a)redhat.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
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--- Comment #17 from Ankit Patel <ankit(a)redhat.com> ---
Hi,
Some questions:
1) What's the purpose of this component (langtable)?
--> As per README file,
""""""""
Purpose of this package
=======================
langtable is used to guess reasonable defaults for locale, keyboard,
territory, …, if part of that information is already known. For
example, guess the territory and the keyboard layout if the language
is known or guess the language and keyboard layout if the territory is
already known.
""""""""
2) Is #comment 0 really indicate a Bug or RFE?
3) What was the prior research/analysis?
4) What should we analyze (or consider) now?
--> Inputs from reportees OR
--> bug watchers OR
--> language experts OR
--> usability experts OR
--> combination of all these OR
--> the actual data points that could be available?
5) How do other countries/languages handle this?
6) How should such requests (not bug) should be handled in a long run?
If we are able to answer all of these correctly and analyze them very well, I
think we may come closure to the solution we are seeking to achieve!
Thanks,
Ankit
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9 years, 9 months