Hey folks, outside observer, and long-time Fedora user weighing in with some thoughts. First off, I've been hyped to see Fedora lead the way with finally making a real move to Wayland, and retire X11. And now I'm fairly disappointed to hear that there's a real chance that move will get killed. And especially that it's not because of a technical problem or blocker bug.
It really seems like KDE-x11 would do better to live in a copr, with whatever packages needs rebuilt to make it work. Probably a better experience for everyone.
The proposal was to go to KDE 6 and drop X11 support. " KDE Plasma will not offer an X11 session" That change was approved by FESCo. And from my perspective running Fedora Rawhide and KDE 6, it looks great. We even have HDR working! That's amazing! So let's go all in.
--Jonathan Bennett
On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 01:34 -0600, Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote:
Hey folks, outside observer, and long-time Fedora user weighing in with some thoughts. First off, I've been hyped to see Fedora lead the way with finally making a real move to Wayland, and retire X11. And now I'm fairly disappointed to hear that there's a real chance that move will get killed. And especially that it's not because of a technical problem or blocker bug.
I don't understand , why you want the others use a crap of software, fully buggy, without many features , which is not supported by many (like nvidia) , because is new ?
Who wants use Wayland and test it, may use wayland and test it, it is even the default .
It is really difficult to me understand your point of view , users should be free to use what they want and have choices, It is really weird (for me) that you want that I use wayland and test wayland .
It really seems like KDE-x11 would do better to live in a copr, with whatever packages needs rebuilt to make it work. Probably a better experience for everyone.
The proposal was to go to KDE 6 and drop X11 support. " KDE Plasma will not offer an X11 session" That change was approved by FESCo. And from my perspective running Fedora Rawhide and KDE 6, it looks great. We even have HDR working! That's amazing! So let's go all in.
--Jonathan Bennett
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On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 1:05 PM Sérgio Basto sergio@serjux.com wrote:
On Fri, 2024-02-02 at 01:34 -0600, Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote:
Hey folks, outside observer, and long-time Fedora user weighing in with some thoughts. First off, I've been hyped to see Fedora lead the way with finally making a real move to Wayland, and retire X11. And now I'm fairly disappointed to hear that there's a real chance that move will get killed. And especially that it's not because of a technical problem or blocker bug.
I don't understand , why you want the others use a crap of software, fully buggy, without many features , which is not supported by many (like nvidia) , because is new ?
Who wants use Wayland and test it, may use wayland and test it, it is even the default .
It is really difficult to me understand your point of view , users should be free to use what they want and have choices, It is really weird (for me) that you want that I use wayland and test wayland .
All of us in the KDE SIG daily drive Plasma Wayland, and have done so for quite a while. I (as well as most of the members) have since 2020, with the two members using NVIDIA beginning daily driving it in 2022 with the 515 driver release. I would not be pushing "crap" or "fully buggy" software "without many features" that is "not supported by many (like nvidia)". We literally waited until NVIDIA started properly supporting it, and spent a lot of time with upstream to improve the experience. With regards to NVIDIA, this cycle provides a lot of light at the end of the tunnel because the proprietary driver is optional for the newest generation of GPUs and eventually will be optional for the last six years of NVIDIA GPUs. Yes, it's not everything, but it's a lot and that's a big deal. The SIG has worked methodically and patiently toward this, in conjunction with upstream (the Fedora way), for three years.
We're also gathering empirical data through our test week, and the results have been largely positive: https://testdays.fedoraproject.org/events/174
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin. Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted. What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora Foundations, First and Features. And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated significant buzz in the community and media.
I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :)
Neal Gompa wrote:
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it.
It's extremely obvious that *some* people want to use Wayland. It's equally obvious that some other people want to use X. It's also obvious that certain people want to make *everybody else* use Wayland. On the other hand I'm not seeing anyone trying to make everybody use X.
Honestly this looks a lot like the usual human desire to force deviants into the mainstream mold.
Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends,
Building artificial obstacles to make it difficult for other people to use what works best for them is not friendly. I'm seeing people trying to make it difficult to use X by relegating it to Copr. I have not seen anyone try to relegate Wayland to Copr. So who's actually being unfriendly here?
The users will come when Wayland provides a better user experience than X. For *their* usecases, not only for yours.
Björn Persson
On 2024-02-03 9:01 a.m., Björn Persson wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it.
It's extremely obvious that *some* people want to use Wayland. It's equally obvious that some other people want to use X. It's also obvious that certain people want to make *everybody else* use Wayland. On the other hand I'm not seeing anyone trying to make everybody use X.
Honestly this looks a lot like the usual human desire to force deviants into the mainstream mold.
In the grand scheme of things, most people are in no way involved in the implementation/development of the software we build. So in this case, you're right; but at the same time the same remains true for all other changes in all other distros: We strive to make it as painless as possible for the end user, while doing as much as we can to foster development and improvements of new technologies. For me, at least, that is one of the major reasons I use Fedora, I love to see what is to come.
Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends,
Building artificial obstacles to make it difficult for other people to use what works best for them is not friendly. I'm seeing people trying to make it difficult to use X by relegating it to Copr. I have not seen anyone try to relegate Wayland to Copr. So who's actually being unfriendly here?
The users will come when Wayland provides a better user experience than X. For *their* usecases, not only for yours.
Björn Persson
Isn't that pretty much what we potentially risk doing every time we submit a change proposal, though? What about when GNOME decides to go towards a similar path and put out the xorg libraries from the project? Would fedora allow those libraries back through an external package like this?
There's also a secondary thing that I feel hasn't been discussed here though: I know work is being done right now to isolate the x11 components of plasma and add build-time options to strip out those components. What happens when we (as-in, the KDE sig) split off those components and now you got 10-15+ x11 packages people gotta install to make it all work?
Things will just be an absolute mess....
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Steve Cossette wrote:
There's also a secondary thing that I feel hasn't been discussed here though: I know work is being done right now to isolate the x11 components of plasma and add build-time options to strip out those components. What happens when we (as-in, the KDE sig) split off those components and now you got 10-15+ x11 packages people gotta install to make it all work?
Then we will submit 10-15+ *-x11 packages for review. It can be done.
Thanks to ld.so.conf.d, it is even possible to override libraries with versions built with X11 support if it becomes necessary to rebuild, not just add, some libraries. I have experience with that (see the now defunct freetype-freeworld, only defunct because the patents either expired or were declared to be covered by the OIN and the functionality is now part of the normal freetype package). There are also packages in Fedora proper making use of that linker feature, e.g., it is (or at least used to be) used by CPU-optimized BLAS libraries.
Kevin Kofler
Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Then we will submit 10-15+ *-x11 packages for review. It can be done.
PS: Users will only have to install plasma-workspace-x11. If there is some optional library that needs an ld.so.conf.d override or a plugin to support X11, it can be conditionally dragged in with a boolean dependency in plasma-workspace-x11: Requires: (kf6-foo-x11 if kf6-foo)
Kevin Kofler
Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Steve Cossette wrote:
There's also a secondary thing that I feel hasn't been discussed here though: I know work is being done right now to isolate the x11 components of plasma and add build-time options to strip out those components. What happens when we (as-in, the KDE sig) split off those components and now you got 10-15+ x11 packages people gotta install to make it all work?
Then we will submit 10-15+ *-x11 packages for review. It can be done.
PPS: I am fairly sure that, if such a state is ever reached, the KDE SIG will no longer be willing to maintain the kde6-x11-unsupported Copr. (Among other things, your statement quoted above pretty clearly implies that.) So that relativates the claim that my packages are unnecessary because people can just use that Copr.
Kevin Kofler
Neal Gompa wrote:
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin.
I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in the particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In particular, I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind that he (like me) is not a native English speaker.
I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the content that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you why the content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts?
Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted.
We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure issue trackers!) you accused me of.
Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What I disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from the Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your Change Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change that Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to package it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or at least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-syst... Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly because you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting those packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about removing X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I promise something, I tend to deliver on it.
What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora Foundations, First and Features.
I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major feature that users rely on align with "Features"?
I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the "Freedom" and "Friends" principles.
And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated significant buzz in the community and media.
Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great.
I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :)
And nobody is taking that away.
Kevin Kofler
Kevin Kofler wrote:
Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great.
F39 is the only release that with Wayland the desktop haven't soft locked and turned gray seconds after login, so thats a huge improvement.
I never been able to even test Wayland before F39.
Lets try something basic like opening Kmail and read mails https://imgur.com/a/ZHYNqjq
Maybe this “just works” in plasma6, but if it don’t and there is no easy way to change to X11, obviously people will choose the path of least resistance. I don’t even think people will know its because of Wayland and blame it on KDE instead.
On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin.
I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in the particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In particular, I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind that he (like me) is not a native English speaker.
I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the content that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you why the content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts?
Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted.
We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure issue trackers!) you accused me of.
Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what led to that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an unbiased observer.
Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What I disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from the Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your Change Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change that Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to package it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or at least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-syst... Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly because you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting those packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about removing X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I promise something, I tend to deliver on it.
What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora Foundations, First and Features.
I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major feature that users rely on align with "Features"?
I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the "Freedom" and "Friends" principles.
And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated significant buzz in the community and media.
Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great.
I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :)
And nobody is taking that away.
Kevin Kofler
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On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what led to that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an unbiased observer.
Jumping to an accusation of bad faith, rather than addressing anything that Kevin wrote, doesn't make for a productive discussion.
On February 4, 2024 2:16:55 PM CST, Tom Seewald tseewald@gmail.com wrote:
On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what led to that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an unbiased observer.
Jumping to an accusation of bad faith, rather than addressing anything that Kevin wrote, doesn't make for a productive discussion.
No. I explicitly did not accuse him of bad faith. I am pointing out that being banned from the Fedora KDE effort puts him in a weird place, to now try to save the day. It's a conflict of interest.
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You were implying that Kevin was claiming to be an "unbiased observer" and that him being banned from the KDE SIG means he has ulterior motives for this beyond simply maintaining Plasma X11 packages.
Call it what you want, but it doesn't make for a constructive discussion.
Tom Seewald wrote:
You were implying that Kevin was claiming to be an "unbiased observer" and that him being banned from the KDE SIG means he has ulterior motives for this beyond simply maintaining Plasma X11 packages.
To make this clear, my motivation for maintaining Plasma X11 packages is very simple: I use Plasma on X11 daily and do not want to be forced to use Wayland. Oh, and I have also publicly promised [https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-syst...] I would submit those packages for review, and I tend to keep my promises. There is nothing more to it.
Kevin Kofler
On 2/4/24 14:16, Tom Seewald wrote:
On February 3, 2024 8:55:42 PM CST, Kevin Kofler via devel <devel(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Wait, you're banned from all the KDE channels in Fedora? I have no idea what led to that, though the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly. But regardless, that calls into question your position as an unbiased observer.
Jumping to an accusation of bad faith, rather than addressing anything that Kevin wrote, doesn't make for a productive discussion.
I'm fairly certain you should be saying this to Kevin.
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Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote:
the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly.
That is what they want you to believe. Sure, this used to be the case, a few years ago.
The atmosphere on #fedora-kde IRC radically changed on 2020-07-13. Until then, it was possible on that chan(nel) to discuss things only partially on topic, such as packaging issues with packages in Fedora that may affect KDE Plasma users but are not part of the KDE SIG's offering, hardware makers' support or non-support of GNU/Linux, etc. On that day (at least in the few hours before I was kicked out of the chan), suddenly, everyone (not just me!) attempting to discuss something like this was immediately greeted with an "off-topic warning".
But what the KDE SIG resents the most is criticism. You can see that in this thread, too. So what happened is that they took offense at the *tone* of the criticism (something they are attempting here too: Neal Gompa wrote:
Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you [= Sérgio] and Kevin.
) because that is a much more socially acceptable way to silence criticism than to do it based on its content. What they ended up holding against me was my puns that "name-called" companies and software projects, such as "NoVideo" instead of "NVidia" and some admittedly more vulgar ones. It shall be noted that I tried really hard to not "name-call" people that way, only companies or projects like Firefox. This was claimed to be a violation of the Fedora Code of Conduct even though that was at that time not stated anywhere in the letter of the CoC: https://web.archive.org/web/20200803212051/https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en... (The current Fedora CoC is much longer: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ and now also bans, among many other things, "personal campaigns against other organizations or individuals", explicitly covering "organizations". That wording did not exist in 2020.)
So what happened on that day is that the KDE SIG instantly decided to ban me along with the general moderation crackdown, without even giving me a chance to adapt to the new strict moderation. (They only gave me the "choice" to leave "voluntarily", which I obviously refused.) They claimed that those had always been the rules (which was clearly not the case, the moderation before and on/after 2020-07-13 was completely different) and that I had been warned often enough (but those "warnings" never drew any sanctions with them before 2020-07-13, neither for me nor for anybody else who was "warned").
And when I tried to appeal the unfair ban to the Fedora Council, the KDE SIG demanded "Acknowledgement that your past behaviour was unacceptable" as a precondition to be unbanned, which I consider particularly unfair and unacceptable because it demands that I plead guilty to a wrongdoing that I do not agree having ever committed. The Council also marked the ticket private against my wishes in an effort to prevent the public from reading about the unfair banning practices in parts of Fedora.
So now, 3½ years later, I am still banned, because the KDE SIG is unwilling to give its old grudges of the distant past an expiry date.
Kevin Kofler
PS:
Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
The atmosphere on #fedora-kde IRC radically changed on 2020-07-13.
I also think that that date was not a coincidence, because shortly after that date, the KDE SIG went through with such changes as:
* Wayland by default for Plasma, * a push for KDE applications as Fedora Flatpaks, * creation of Kinoite, * systemd user sessions by default,
etc., which would have been met by criticism and opposition from me and others. The moderation crackdown was successful at silencing that criticism.
Kevin Kofler
On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 9:04 PM Kevin Kofler via devel devel@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote:
the KDE SIG doesn't have a track record of handing those kind of bans out flippantly.
That is what they want you to believe. Sure, this used to be the case, a few years ago.
“Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.” - JMS
I am uninterested in your side, nor their side, and I do not believe anyone has the full truth to share.
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 03:55 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin.
I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in the particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In particular, I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind that he (like me) is not a native English speaker.
I haven't time to read all messages on this thread
My conclusion is, we have false arguments , that Xorg is old, that is not maintained, that will give more work , even we got some lies on some arguments and when we disassemble these arguments, they came up with new ones, now is the tone . I know would be very fancy only have wayland , modern etc etc . But the true is they have the work of remove X11 and not the opposite.
Other thought it is obvious that KDE 6 will be a disaster, I remember Kevin step up from leader of KDE SIG, after move from KDE 3 for 4 or 4 for 5 because the work was too much and we need have a life.
And the problem here is, we haven't an agreement , since the first day of proposal many people said that was not acceptable and there opinions were ignored and the proposal haven't changed one bit.
I think, I and Kevin so be added to the KDE SIG , please add me at least (here is the request) .
I think is stupid and a waste of energy, IMO, do a kwin-x11 and plasma -x11 , like I said KDE SIG had the work of remove X11 from the builds, to enable kwin-x11 on Fedora Rawhide is just set %bcond to 1 on kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2], so I think that should be enable. Another way is build the entire package with X11 and conflict with the original because will give us less work and we will have less doubts or user use packages from KDE SIG or user use packages from KDE-X11 SIG and can't use both. Like happens with ffmpeg where also Neal haven't reach to an agreement with members of RPMFusion , so now we have ffmpeg from RPMFUSion with one freeworld sub-package and we have fffmpeg-free from Fedora and ffmpeg(s) conflicts each other .
It never happened to me such thing , except recently and all cases with Neal directly involved, so I see Neal as the problem, was ImageMagick , was ffmpeg, was LSB , now KDE and one honest advice for Neal who appears everywhere, try to do fewer things but be more focused
[1] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_2
[2] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/blob/rawhide/f/plasma-wo...
I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the content that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you why the content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts?
Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted.
We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure issue trackers!) you accused me of.
Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What I disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from the Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your Change Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change that Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to package it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or at least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it: https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-syst... Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly because you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting those packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about removing X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I promise something, I tend to deliver on it.
What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora Foundations, First and Features.
I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major feature that users rely on align with "Features"?
I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the "Freedom" and "Friends" principles.
And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated significant buzz in the community and media.
Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great.
I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :)
And nobody is taking that away.
Kevin Kofler
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On Sun, 4 Feb 2024, 23:16 Sérgio Basto, sergio@serjux.com wrote:
On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 03:55 +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
Neal Gompa wrote:
It's extremely obvious that people want to use it. You replied to someone who did and denigrated their opinion. Frankly, I'm disappointed in your response as well as the tone of you and Kevin.
I cannot really speak for Sérgio. I do think his choice of words in the particular mail you are referring to could have been better. (In particular, I would not have used the word "crap" there.) But please keep in mind that he (like me) is not a native English speaker.
I haven't time to read all messages on this thread
My conclusion is, we have false arguments , that Xorg is old, that is not maintained, that will give more work , even we got some lies on some arguments and when we disassemble these arguments, they came up with new ones, now is the tone . I know would be very fancy only have wayland , modern etc etc . But the true is they have the work of remove X11 and not the opposite.
Other thought it is obvious that KDE 6 will be a disaster, I remember Kevin step up from leader of KDE SIG, after move from KDE 3 for 4 or 4 for 5 because the work was too much and we need have a life.
And the problem here is, we haven't an agreement , since the first day of proposal many people said that was not acceptable and there opinions were ignored and the proposal haven't changed one bit.
I think, I and Kevin so be added to the KDE SIG , please add me at least (here is the request) .
Wouldn't it be better to create a new totally different named SIG?
Since bug reporting and crossover of people assuming it is official fedora plasma are the concerns, a totally independent named SIG and an independently named desktop should be considered serious options as that way the extra work can be avoided for the current KDE SIG.
That way you can even have a desktop with a different name so people will not think to file bug reports with plasma etc., avoiding problems with overloading the SIG with work.
I think is stupid and a waste of energy, IMO, do a kwin-x11 and plasma -x11 , like I said KDE SIG had the work of remove X11 from the builds, to enable kwin-x11 on Fedora Rawhide is just set %bcond to 1 on kwin.spec [1] and plasma-workspace.spec [2], so I think that should be enable. Another way is build the entire package with X11 and conflict with the original because will give us less work and we will have less doubts or user use packages from KDE SIG or user use packages from KDE-X11 SIG and can't use both. Like happens with ffmpeg where also Neal haven't reach to an agreement with members of RPMFusion , so now we have ffmpeg from RPMFUSion with one freeworld sub-package and we have fffmpeg-free from Fedora and ffmpeg(s) conflicts each other .
It never happened to me such thing , except recently and all cases with Neal directly involved, so I see Neal as the problem, was ImageMagick , was ffmpeg, was LSB , now KDE and one honest advice for Neal who appears everywhere, try to do fewer things but be more focused
[1] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/kwin/blob/rawhide/f/kwin.spec#_2
[2]
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/plasma-workspace/blob/rawhide/f/plasma-wo...
I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are offended by the tone of my messages. Are you sure that it is not the content that upsets you rather than the tone? And if it is, try asking you why the content upsets you. Maybe because it points out inconvenient facts?
Neither of you are aligning with the Fedora Foundation of Friends, and the personal attacks were unwarranted and unwanted.
We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure issue trackers!) you accused me of.
Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal. What I disagree with is the technical decision to remove X11 support from the Fedora Plasma packaging. I also objected right when you filed your Change Proposal that the KDE SIG has no authority to declare in the Change that Fedora will NOT ship something because other packagers are free to package it. A belief that at the time was actually shared by the KDE SIG, or at least by the one KDE SIG member who has publicly commented on it:
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-syst...
Though the wording in the Change Proposal was not changed. Possibly because you did not believe at the time that I was serious about submitting those packages, just like others did not believe you were serious about removing X11 support from Plasma packaging. But I am of the kind that when I promise something, I tend to deliver on it.
What we're doing is bold for sure, but aligns with two more of the Fedora Foundations, First and Features.
I can see how it aligns with "First", but how does removing a major feature that users rely on align with "Features"?
I also believe that denying users the choice of continuing to use X11 despite upstream still supporting it does not align with the "Freedom" and "Friends" principles.
And for the first time in a long time, Fedora KDE has generated significant buzz in the community and media.
Any press is good press? I believe that the coverage only hurts the reputation of the Fedora KDE SIG. If you see the discussions, many people are grabbing their virtual pitchforks, or silently switching distributions as a result of the news (even though it is actually fake news because I had already stated back in September that I would reintroduce the X11 packages should you remove them, a fact that the press has not bothered researching). Sure, there are some very vocal fanboys screaming "Death to X11!", but I really do not understand why, because nobody is forcing them to use X11. There is no need to remove X11 to make Wayland great.
I'm excited for the future of Fedora KDE with Plasma Wayland, as well as what we're doing with the upstream KDE community. :)
And nobody is taking that away.
Kevin Kofler
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-- Sérgio M. B. -- _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Naheem Zaffar wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to create a new totally different named SIG?
Since bug reporting and crossover of people assuming it is official fedora plasma are the concerns, a totally independent named SIG and an independently named desktop should be considered serious options as that way the extra work can be avoided for the current KDE SIG.
That way you can even have a desktop with a different name so people will not think to file bug reports with plasma etc., avoiding problems with overloading the SIG with work.
What I am packaging is still called KDE Plasma upstream, so calling it something completely different would be really confusing to the users and also fail to attribute upstream KDE Plasma for their work. (Keep in mind that upstream KDE is NOT dropping X11 support from Plasma/KWin.)
Also, as explained here: https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3165#comment-894020 I do not think making the packages completely independent of the Plasma packages (as calling it something completely different would likely imply) would be a good idea from a technical standpoint.
If we want us Plasma on X11 maintainers to become a formal SIG, it will have to be named something like "KDE X11 SIG" or "Plasma X11 SIG" or some combination thereof.
Kevin Kofler
On Sun, Feb 04, 2024 at 03:55:42AM +0100, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
I can, though, speak for myself, and I am frankly surprised that you are offended by the tone of my messages.
Kevin, thank you for the way you're participating in this thread. Your civil tone and patience and writing about facts more than opinions is appreciated. This difficult discussion could have been much more difficult otherwise.
Zbyszek
On Sunday, 4 February 2024 03:55:42 CET Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
We (the KDE SIG and me) stopped being Friends when you (the KDE SIG) unilaterally decided to ban me from all your communication channels, a ban that has still not been lifted years after the alleged misconduct (on IRC only, but the ban was extended to the mailing list and even your Pagure issue trackers!) you accused me of.
I will only say to everybody who is interested that you are only reading Kevin's side of the story. There's another one.
Nevertheless, I am really trying hard to not make this personal
That is absolutely true, I have mentioned this several times in our Matrix room.
Kudos to you for that.
Jonathan Bennett via devel wrote:
Hey folks, outside observer, and long-time Fedora user weighing in with some thoughts. First off, I've been hyped to see Fedora lead the way with finally making a real move to Wayland, and retire X11. And now I'm fairly disappointed to hear that there's a real chance that move will get killed. And especially that it's not because of a technical problem or blocker bug.
Well, "killed" is a really strong word for what amounts to resurrecting 2 packages to give users a choice.
I am actually trying to prevent Plasma X11 support from being "killed".
It really seems like KDE-x11 would do better to live in a copr, with whatever packages needs rebuilt to make it work. Probably a better experience for everyone.
I do not see how it is a better experience to have to enable an additional repository, for which dnf will warn the user that it is "unsupported" (even if it does not have that in the name as the kde6-x11-unsupported Copr does) than to have those packages available in the standard Fedora repository.
The proposal was to go to KDE 6 and drop X11 support. " KDE Plasma will not offer an X11 session" That change was approved by FESCo. And from my perspective running Fedora Rawhide and KDE 6, it looks great. We even have HDR working! That's amazing! So let's go all in.
Glad to hear that Plasma on Wayland is working so great for you. Nobody is taking that away from you. Wayland will still be the default (as it has been for a few releases already), and the X11 packages will not even be installed by default (in fact, they will be uninstalled by default when upgrading to Fedora 40! My packages do not change that). So you get to enjoy your "amazing" HDR etc. with no changes whatsoever. Nobody is taking that away from you.
All I am asking, and willing to make happen, is to not take Plasma X11 away from us.
Kevin Kofler