When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
1) Fonts not used by any fontconfig app. I don't think we ship any apps that aren't fontconfig users on the livecd (and if we do, we shouldn't...)
7140551 xorg-x11-fonts-misc 3417965 xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi 1070826 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi 1066029 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-100dpi 301748 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi
2) Bitmap fonts, which almost certainly won't be pulled in by fontconfig by default.
27332191 fonts-japanese 9241059 baekmuk-bdf-fonts 7049492 bitmap-fonts 1970046 taipeifonts
3) Everything else. These are probably OK. :)
20925196 cjkunifonts-uming 17639727 cjkunifonts-ukai 15613489 dejavu-fonts 13939722 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-batang 10385374 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-gulim 3831790 VLGothic-fonts-proportional 3831447 VLGothic-fonts 3066338 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-dotum 3008781 thaifonts-scalable 2002144 culmus-fonts 1865190 liberation-fonts 1271487 kacst-fonts 1203754 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-hline 966835 paktype-fonts 883992 xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 775248 stix-fonts 270427 sarai-fonts 177606 lohit-fonts-telugu 162025 samyak-fonts-devanagari 157561 samyak-fonts-oriya 157390 lohit-fonts-bengali 137277 samyak-fonts-gujarati 113638 lohit-fonts-oriya 97894 lohit-fonts-gujarati 96778 lohit-fonts-hindi 85301 samyak-fonts-tamil 83406 lohit-fonts-tamil 82905 samyak-fonts-malayalam 79482 lohit-fonts-malayalam 39898 lohit-fonts-punjabi
Bill
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay
Jeremy
Jeremy Katz (katzj@redhat.com) said:
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay
Well, things like 'these fonts are only useful outside of fontconfig', or 'only really used for various terminal emulators' are decisions probably best left to the spin, not to the generic comps.
Bill
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 16:04 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Jeremy Katz (katzj@redhat.com) said:
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay
Well, things like 'these fonts are only useful outside of fontconfig', or 'only really used for various terminal emulators' are decisions probably best left to the spin, not to the generic comps.
If the apps not using fontconfig aren't marked as defaults, then it's probably not unreasonable. At least the bitmap fonts, we should probably finally take the plunge with
Jeremy
Jeremy Katz さんは書きました:
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
Yes a lot of space in general ends up being used by fonts. I'd lean towards saying we should make things optional in comps rather than making explicit changes to the livecd, though from a maintenance point of view. Although I guess if we wanted to do it first on the livecd for F9 and then in general for F10 via comps, that'd be okay
Well we have argued about this before, but my take now is that we should have Lang Support group parity across Live and standard installs: so either we don't install all the language support groups for Live or we should for standard installs, and then take comps from there.
Personally I would tend towards not installing all language groups for Live and installing some Input Methods by default to compensate, which would leave Live in a similar state to what it is now, but would drop various fonts that are only installed by default for language support groups.
Jens
Le vendredi 18 avril 2008 à 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham a écrit :
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
My advice would be:
1. drop every core fonts package except one to keep legacy users happy (probably xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-15-100dpi)
2. drop xorg-x11-fonts-Type1. Nothing in there not provided by more modern font packages
3. fonts-japanese is probably not 100% necessary when VLGothic is available
4. drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a space-constrained media
5. Have the Arabic l10n group choose between kacst and paktype
6. Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts, keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak)
7. Have the Chinese l10n group choose between cjkunifonts-uming and cjkunifonts-ukai
8. add dejavu-fonts-experimental — you *really* want the distro default fonts to have a complete face set, a lot of users will notice and complain otherwise
I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete.
Regards,
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 23:13 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le vendredi 18 avril 2008 à 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham a écrit :
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
My advice would be:
I pretty much second everything Nicolas said.
behdad
- drop every core fonts package except one to keep legacy users happy
(probably xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-15-100dpi)
2. drop xorg-x11-fonts-Type1. Nothing in there not provided by more modern font packages
3. fonts-japanese is probably not 100% necessary when VLGothic is available
- drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during
the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a space-constrained media
Have the Arabic l10n group choose between kacst and paktype
Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts,
keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak)
- Have the Chinese l10n group choose between cjkunifonts-uming and
cjkunifonts-ukai
- add dejavu-fonts-experimental — you *really* want the distro default
fonts to have a complete face set, a lot of users will notice and complain otherwise
I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete.
Regards,
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Le samedi 19 avril 2008 à 02:59 +0530, Rahul Sundaram a écrit :
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
- Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts,
keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak)
Lohit is what we prefer by default for Indic. Everything else can be deemed optional.
Since they're all broken up by scripts now you probably want to be more specific, unless lohit provides every needed indic script and none of the others is necessary for coverage.
Regards,
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le samedi 19 avril 2008 à 02:59 +0530, Rahul Sundaram a écrit :
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
- Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts,
keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak)
Lohit is what we prefer by default for Indic. Everything else can be deemed optional.
Since they're all broken up by scripts now you probably want to be more specific, unless lohit provides every needed indic script and none of the others is necessary for coverage.
Yes. Lohit provides scripts for more than one language.
lohit-fonts-bengali.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-gujarati.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-hindi.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-kannada.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-malayalam.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-oriya.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-punjabi.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-tamil.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
lohit-fonts-telugu.noarch 2.2.0-1.fc9 rawhide
Rahul
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete.
Even if you had full knowledge of fonts safe to remove from the LiveCD (because they are good enough for web browsing), this introduces an additional problem of incomplete language coverage in Live installs. This is not a problem if the LiveCD is used for one-off demos, but it is an issue if you are using it to install your desktop.
This is a new source of user confusion, bogus support questions and bogus bugs. It isn't exactly obvious to the user that they need to use "yum groupinstall foo-language" in order to obtain full support for their native language. There is also no way to do group installs from PackageKit GUI at the moment.
This was not a previous behavior, this expectation isn't documented anywhere, and this potentially invalidates F9 cycle testing because testing did not happen with incomplete font package installs. You especially want to avoid culturally insensitive (and difficult for outsiders to test) cases where the wrong font is giving glyphs for a language it was not intended, as can happen between Chinese, Japanese and Korean.
This is a big change to make this late in the F9 cycle. Can we adequately test the impact of this to all supported languages?
Key question to ask ourselves: Is trying support all languages from a single Live image really sustainable? Even after removing all fonts unnecessary for web-browsing, we cannot indefinitely continue to add an arbitrary number of languages to a fixed size CD image.
We may be forced into doing region/language specific LiveCD's.
Let us get an expert opinion from RH's eng-i18n team.
Warren Togami wtogami@redhat.com
Warren Togami (wtogami@redhat.com) said:
Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete.
Even if you had full knowledge of fonts safe to remove from the LiveCD (because they are good enough for web browsing), this introduces an additional problem of incomplete language coverage in Live installs.
The suggestion was not to remove any language coverage - the suggestion was to remove:
1) core fonts which none of the apps on the LiveCD use 2) *duplicate* fonts for language coverage
Bill
Warren Togami wrote:
Key question to ask ourselves: Is trying support all languages from a single Live image really sustainable?
*shrug*, Imo, no. At least in the KDE-live case, we make no bones about it being pretty much English-only, and encourage the production/use of localized spins.
-- Rex
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Rex Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu wrote:
Warren Togami wrote:
Key question to ask ourselves: Is trying support all languages from a single Live image really sustainable?
*shrug*, Imo, no. At least in the KDE-live case, we make no bones about it being pretty much English-only, and encourage the production/use of localized spins.
IMO, all the fonts pertaining to a language should remain in the localized spins for that language, whereas only the necessary ones be present in other cases.
As Sundaram has already pointed out, for providing minimal Indic support, Lohit font series should be considered as a must, rest all should be optional or removed. This includes, sarai-fonts, samyak-fonts*, smc-fonts*(may not be available yet), and madan-fonts. Although, madan-fonts is specifically designed for Nepali language, the lohit-fonts-hindi is a good enough for Nepali as the writing script is same for both. Also, since there are so many similar looking and some very rarely used (artistic) fonts available for English, we should even filter out some of them in the Live media. _ Rahul.
-- Rex
-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Le dimanche 20 avril 2008 à 01:42 +0530, Rahul Bhalerao a écrit :
Also, since there are so many similar looking and some very rarely used (artistic) fonts available for English, we should even filter out some of them in the Live media.
This already happened a long time ago. There are no artistic fonts in the posted lists. The problem is mostly sorting non-latin fonts.
Nicolas Mailhot さんは書きました:
3. fonts-japanese is probably not 100% necessary when VLGothic is available
Right. It is only pulled in by @japanese-support, but should be installed for Japanese installs I think.
- drop culmus — DejaVu full includes Hebrew no one complained of during
the F9 cycle, so no need to keep a separate Hebrew font on a space-constrained media
Ditto for @hebrew-support.
- Have the Arabic l10n group choose between kacst and paktype
Hmm they are currently both default in the @fonts group.
- Have the Indic l10n group sort the huge number of indic fonts,
keeping only one package per script (sarai, lohit, smc, samyak)
The Indic fonts are pretty small. I think mostly Lohit is preferred, except for Malayalam (smc, which is not yet in comps). Again sarai and samyak are optional in @fonts.
- Have the Chinese l10n group choose between cjkunifonts-uming and
cjkunifonts-ukai
We already have this in @fonts, and should not make this choice for @chinese-support.
- add dejavu-fonts-experimental — you *really* want the distro default
fonts to have a complete face set, a lot of users will notice and complain otherwise
Agreed. This is also already default in @fonts.
I'm afraid most wins are in 3. 5. 6. & 7., and they depend on l10n groups telling us their wishes, which unfortunately has not happened a lot so far. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Fonts/Triaging/L10N remains terribly incomplete.
So basically just following the current defaults in @fonts will give you nearly everything you want already. And that is my suggestion: use @fonts for this, not the language support groups which should be considered optional.
Jens
I've got a similar question here for the KDE live images. At the moment our fonts list is: 10385374 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-gulim 1070826 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi 113638 lohit-fonts-oriya 1271487 kacst-fonts 1501946 ghostscript-fonts 15613489 dejavu-fonts 157390 lohit-fonts-bengali 177606 lohit-fonts-telugu 1865190 liberation-fonts 20925196 cjkunifonts-uming 210774 lohit-fonts-kannada 213774 fonts-KOI8-R 2293163 jomolhari-fonts 254120 madan-fonts 3008781 thaifonts-scalable 301748 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi 333507 lklug-fonts 3417965 xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi 3831447 VLGothic-fonts 39898 lohit-fonts-punjabi 4389400 urw-fonts 4529886 tibetan-machine-uni-fonts 4634 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-common 649794 abyssinica-fonts 7049492 bitmap-fonts 7140551 xorg-x11-fonts-misc 7349237 dejavu-fonts-experimental 775248 stix-fonts 79482 lohit-fonts-malayalam 80377 fonts-ISO8859-2 83406 lohit-fonts-tamil 883992 xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 966835 paktype-fonts 96778 lohit-fonts-hindi 97894 lohit-fonts-gujarati
Most of them are pulled in by @fonts. But we also include some of them manually: fonts-ISO8859-2 madan-fonts fonts-KOI8-R fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi tibetan-machine-uni-fonts
If someone could review them I would be happy :) We have about 5 megs of free space if some fonts are missing. But If we could remove some of them, we could maybe include some additional packages.
Sebastian
Le samedi 19 avril 2008 à 00:36 +0200, Sebastian Vahl a écrit :
I've got a similar question here for the KDE live images. At the moment our fonts list is:
At first glance you could use pretty much the same advice as the live spin, except you've already followed some of it, and you have support for some scripts the main live spin is missing (which is good, if you have the space). For example : tibetan & ethiopic (abyssinica).
If you really wanted to save space, you could drop the urw & ghoscript fonts, but I suspect you may have some packages depending on them explicitely. They don't add coverage, and they're not really good screen font, but they do provide some standard font metrics (is it worth some live cd space?)
Sebastian Vahl さんは書きました:
I've got a similar question here for the KDE live images. At the moment our fonts list is: 10385374 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-gulim 1070826 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi 113638 lohit-fonts-oriya 1271487 kacst-fonts 1501946 ghostscript-fonts 15613489 dejavu-fonts 157390 lohit-fonts-bengali 177606 lohit-fonts-telugu 1865190 liberation-fonts 20925196 cjkunifonts-uming 210774 lohit-fonts-kannada 213774 fonts-KOI8-R 2293163 jomolhari-fonts 254120 madan-fonts 3008781 thaifonts-scalable 301748 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi 333507 lklug-fonts 3417965 xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi 3831447 VLGothic-fonts 39898 lohit-fonts-punjabi 4389400 urw-fonts 4529886 tibetan-machine-uni-fonts 4634 baekmuk-ttf-fonts-common 649794 abyssinica-fonts 7049492 bitmap-fonts 7140551 xorg-x11-fonts-misc 7349237 dejavu-fonts-experimental 775248 stix-fonts 79482 lohit-fonts-malayalam 80377 fonts-ISO8859-2 83406 lohit-fonts-tamil 883992 xorg-x11-fonts-Type1 966835 paktype-fonts 96778 lohit-fonts-hindi 97894 lohit-fonts-gujarati
Most of them are pulled in by @fonts. But we also include some of them manually: fonts-ISO8859-2 madan-fonts fonts-KOI8-R fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi tibetan-machine-uni-fonts
If someone could review them I would be happy :)
It looks fine to me. I think basically @fonts should give you all the coverage you need, but if you have spare space sure you can install some extra fonts.
Jens
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
- Fonts not used by any fontconfig app. I don't think we
ship any apps that aren't fontconfig users on the livecd (and if we do, we shouldn't...)
7140551 xorg-x11-fonts-misc 3417965 xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi 1070826 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi 1066029 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-100dpi 301748 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi
The 'fixed' and 'cursor' fonts have to come from somewhere, or the X server won't start. I believe there's still a bug where they won't show up when the built-in font list is used, which means you have to keep -misc.
Of course, we could split out xorg-x11-fonts-mandatory from -misc. I'll take a look at this.
- ajax
On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 14:17 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
- Fonts not used by any fontconfig app. I don't think we
ship any apps that aren't fontconfig users on the livecd (and if we do, we shouldn't...)
7140551 xorg-x11-fonts-misc 3417965 xorg-x11-fonts-100dpi 1070826 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-1-100dpi 1066029 xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-9-100dpi 301748 fonts-KOI8-R-100dpi
The 'fixed' and 'cursor' fonts have to come from somewhere, or the X server won't start. I believe there's still a bug where they won't show up when the built-in font list is used, which means you have to keep -misc.
Of course, we could split out xorg-x11-fonts-mandatory from -misc. I'll take a look at this.
Why don't we just make builtin-fonts work? I haven't heard of any case where that breaks, and if there is one we should fix that.
Kristian
Bill Nottingham (notting@redhat.com) said:
When looking over the LiveCD manifest, and where space is going, I can't help but notice that a lot of it goes to fonts. Here's the full list, AFAICT. The number to the left is the size of the package. I think a good chunk of this could be pruned.
...
So, while this could be a good idea, at this stage, this is probably best done for Fedora 10.
I suppose one of the 'issues' here is that we want for the base livecd to include basic support for most langs, which means both fonts and input methods. However, to do that you bring in the langsupport groups, which means you do get font duplication.
Bill
Bill Nottingham さんは書きました:
So, while this could be a good idea, at this stage, this is probably best done for Fedora 10.
Right - probably safest at this stage.
I suppose one of the 'issues' here is that we want for the base livecd to include basic support for most langs, which means both fonts and input methods. However, to do that you bring in the langsupport groups, which means you do get font duplication.
Agreed, and I suggested the same in another followup. Let's try to do that for F10 then. Perhaps we should have an @input-methods group in comps for that?
Jens