Nokia's N900[1] is a relatively open smartphone running the Maemo distro[2] which is roughly based on Debian Etch. Moblin[3] is a distro mostly by Intel which is/was primarily for Netbooks. If you haven't heard the news[4], Intel and Nokia have agreed to merge the Maemo and Moblin projects into a new project called MeeGo[5], hosted by the Linux Foundation.
So what's so cool about this for the fans of this list? "We are using F12 ARM release to bootstrap MeeGo using the OBS build system[6] ARM architecture support."[7] Suddenly Fedora ARM has gone from relative obscurity to being the foundation for one of the most innovative hardware/software packages out there. Very cool. :)
Have fun,
-Jeff
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900 [2] http://www.maemo.org/ [3] http://moblin.org/ [4] http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/374612/bb8bf5cc77d85358/ [5] http://www.meego.org/ [6] http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service [7] http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Jeff Moe moe@blagblagblag.org wrote:
Nokia's N900[1] is a relatively open smartphone running the Maemo distro[2] which is roughly based on Debian Etch. Moblin[3] is a distro mostly by Intel which is/was primarily for Netbooks. If you haven't heard the news[4], Intel and Nokia have agreed to merge the Maemo and Moblin projects into a new project called MeeGo[5], hosted by the Linux Foundation.
So what's so cool about this for the fans of this list? "We are using F12 ARM release to bootstrap MeeGo using the OBS build system[6] ARM architecture support."[7] Suddenly Fedora ARM has gone from relative obscurity to being the foundation for one of the most innovative hardware/software packages out there. Very cool. :)
Have fun,
-Jeff
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900 [2] http://www.maemo.org/ [3] http://moblin.org/ [4] http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/374612/bb8bf5cc77d85358/ [5] http://www.meego.org/ [6] http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service [7] http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support _______________________________________________ arm mailing list arm@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/arm
<repost ... silly "reply all" button got away from me/>
That's awesome!!! I do however think its a little funny that the opensuse build service is being used to bootstrap Fedora, but more power to open source collaboration :)
-AdamM
On 02/23/10 17:29, Somebody in the thread at some point said:
So what's so cool about this for the fans of this list? "We are using F12 ARM release to bootstrap MeeGo using the OBS build system[6] ARM architecture support."[7] Suddenly Fedora ARM has gone from relative obscurity to being the foundation for one of the most innovative hardware/software packages out there. Very cool. :)
That's awesome!!! I do however think its a little funny that the opensuse build service is being used to bootstrap Fedora, but more power to open source collaboration :)
I think they're missing out on the value of having a Fedora basis, they say on their wiki http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support :
''The initial goal is to get rid of the F12 dependency and start build MeeGo ARM in a self-contain environment.''
I wonder what their reasoning is for that since there's obvious value having a giant package universe well maintained and constantly uplevelled. It doesn't make any sense to just bootstrap from it and get away from it back into having to deal with all rootfs packages yourself again, carry patches, etc.
Still, at least they got away from cross :-)
-Andy
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Andy Green andy@warmcat.com wrote: <snip>
''The initial goal is to get rid of the F12 dependency and start build MeeGo ARM in a self-contain environment.''
<snip>
Awwwww .... sadface. So are both Moblin and Maemo dropping their inherited distro dependencies? Should we expect to see a new breed of distro spawn from the depths of Intel+Nokia?
This should prove to be interesting.
-AdamM
On Tuesday 23 February 2010 14:37:59 Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Andy Green andy@warmcat.com wrote:
<snip> > ''The initial goal is to get rid of the F12 dependency and start build > MeeGo ARM in a self-contain environment.'' ><snip>
Awwwww .... sadface. So are both Moblin and Maemo dropping their inherited distro dependencies? Should we expect to see a new breed of distro spawn from the depths of Intel+Nokia?
This blog post has a bit more background on the decision to not have a main upstream distro: http://www.allmeegodevices.com/meego-a-whole-new-linux-ballgame/
This should prove to be interesting.
Definitely... Lots of things are up in the air and "details are sketchy" but it looks like a cool project. The largest chip manufacturer is teaming up with the largest cellphone manufacturer and it's all centralized around the Linux Foundation to keep things clean. In fact, AFAICT, the first (or maybe second) MeeGo device was announced by a third party, LG.
-Jeff
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Adam Miller maxamillion@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Andy Green andy@warmcat.com wrote:
<snip> > ''The initial goal is to get rid of the F12 dependency and start build > MeeGo ARM in a self-contain environment.'' ><snip>
Awwwww .... sadface. So are both Moblin and Maemo dropping their inherited distro dependencies? Should we expect to see a new breed of distro spawn from the depths of Intel+Nokia?
Moblin has always been like that. They used Fedora packages and the core distro style (moblin-release etc) but compile it using the SuSE toolchain in the SuSE OBS. This was the case for Moblin >= 2.0. So even though the packages were based on our F-11 pre release (I think it was that release) and they have the ChangeLog etc they aren't really binary compatible so are for all intents and purposes another distro.
Peter
On 02/24/10 02:23, Somebody in the thread at some point said:
Moblin has always been like that. They used Fedora packages and the core distro style (moblin-release etc) but compile it using the SuSE toolchain in the SuSE OBS. This was the case for Moblin >= 2.0. So even though the packages were based on our F-11 pre release (I think it was that release) and they have the ChangeLog etc they aren't really binary compatible so are for all intents and purposes another distro.
From what I read subsequently it's intentional, they don't want to depend on another distro that is in control of critical decisions, and hired numerous people to duplicate everything so they can "be in control".
However it's possible to cherrypick critical packages, change their config, recook and enforce preference for the modified versions just by using epoch (I use epoch of 1000 for ours, eg, kernel). Really the bulk of packages there is not much to argue about Fedora's default config anyway.
I think they are missing the value of Fedora ARM completely, they are just using the prebuilt rootfs tarball to get started from what I can work out, it's a real shame they "wanna be Android".
-Andy
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Andy Green andy@warmcat.com wrote:
On 02/24/10 02:23, Somebody in the thread at some point said:
Moblin has always been like that. They used Fedora packages and the core
distro style (moblin-release etc) but compile it using the SuSE toolchain in the SuSE OBS. This was the case for Moblin >= 2.0. So even though the packages were based on our F-11 pre release (I think it was that release) and they have the ChangeLog etc they aren't really binary compatible so are for all intents and purposes another distro.
From what I read subsequently it's intentional, they don't want to depend on another distro that is in control of critical decisions, and hired numerous people to duplicate everything so they can "be in control".
However it's possible to cherrypick critical packages, change their config, recook and enforce preference for the modified versions just by using epoch (I use epoch of 1000 for ours, eg, kernel). Really the bulk of packages there is not much to argue about Fedora's default config anyway.
I think they are missing the value of Fedora ARM completely, they are just using the prebuilt rootfs tarball to get started from what I can work out, it's a real shame they "wanna be Android"
I don't think the "wanna be Android" is a fair statement. SuSE and Mandriva started as forks of RHL for various reasons. Android is a custom stack on top of a Linux kernel, Moblin is not. Its using free and open source components like most of the other distros. The UX is easily rebuilt and used on other platforms. I've done so for Fedora just like the Ubuntu, SuSE and Madriva guys have. You can't do that with Android.
Peter
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:14 PM, Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote: <snip>
I don't think the "wanna be Android" is a fair statement. SuSE and Mandriva started as forks of RHL for various reasons. Android is a custom stack on top of a Linux kernel, Moblin is not. Its using free and open source components like most of the other distros. The UX is easily rebuilt and used on other platforms. I've done so for Fedora just like the Ubuntu, SuSE and Madriva guys have. You can't do that with Android.
Peter
Side note, SuSE started as a fork of Slackware. Those who might have once had an allegiance to the lizard might get all up in arms about that one. But I do see your point.
-AdamM
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Adam Miller <maxamillion@fedoraproject.org
wrote:
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:14 PM, Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote:
<snip> > I don't think the "wanna be Android" is a fair statement. SuSE and Mandriva > started as forks of RHL for various reasons. Android is a custom stack on > top of a Linux kernel, Moblin is not. Its using free and open source > components like most of the other distros. The UX is easily rebuilt and used > on other platforms. I've done so for Fedora just like the Ubuntu, SuSE and > Madriva guys have. You can't do that with Android. > > Peter >
Side note, SuSE started as a fork of Slackware. Those who might have once had an allegiance to the lizard might get all up in arms about that one. But I do see your point.
Ah, my bad, I remember (apparently incorrectly) that SuSE started as a German translation to RHL that later tried to optimize with i686 rpms. Not meant to confuse.
Cheers, Peter
On 02/25/10 00:14, Somebody in the thread at some point said:
I think they are missing the value of Fedora ARM completely, they are just using the prebuilt rootfs tarball to get started from what I can work out, it's a real shame they "wanna be Android"I don't think the "wanna be Android" is a fair statement. SuSE and Mandriva started as forks of RHL for various reasons. Android is a custom stack on top of a Linux kernel, Moblin is not. Its using free and open source components like most of the other distros. The UX is easily rebuilt and used on other platforms. I've done so for Fedora just like the Ubuntu, SuSE and Madriva guys have. You can't do that with Android.
What I meant by it is cut themselves off and roll their own stuff that won't play with anything else. They could just not do all that continuous work and be finished already today by really having a Fedora basis with their packages and opt-out recook packages on top.
I guess the had an experience with having a Debian basis and decided it wasn't workable to as they say "have an upstream". It sounds like an expensive decision that reduces the value to anyone else of the work they're doing.
You're right it'd be better to say "wanna be Mandriva" since at least Meego also committed to an RPM basis, and you can't share Mandriva binaries with Fedora ones readily either.
-Andy
On Thursday 25 February 2010 06:05:11 Andy Green wrote:
On 02/25/10 00:14, Somebody in the thread at some point said:
I think they are missing the value of Fedora ARM completely, they are just using the prebuilt rootfs tarball to get started from what I can work out, it's a real shame they "wanna be Android"I don't think the "wanna be Android" is a fair statement. SuSE and Mandriva started as forks of RHL for various reasons. Android is a custom stack on top of a Linux kernel, Moblin is not. Its using free and open source components like most of the other distros. The UX is easily rebuilt and used on other platforms. I've done so for Fedora just like the Ubuntu, SuSE and Madriva guys have. You can't do that with Android.
What I meant by it is cut themselves off and roll their own stuff that won't play with anything else. They could just not do all that continuous work and be finished already today by really having a Fedora basis with their packages and opt-out recook packages on top.
I guess the had an experience with having a Debian basis and decided it wasn't workable to as they say "have an upstream". It sounds like an expensive decision that reduces the value to anyone else of the work they're doing.
You're right it'd be better to say "wanna be Mandriva" since at least Meego also committed to an RPM basis, and you can't share Mandriva binaries with Fedora ones readily either.
AFAICT, it seems that it will be based on Fedora style .specs, so it will be reasonably straightforward to give/take .src.rpms from Fedora (and with a bit more work to Mandriva/SUSE). They will likely also build their ARM binaries to specifically target devices (e.g. ARM7 instead of the current ARM5 of F12 ARM).
So the comparison with Android is a bit off, since you can't really use anything from Android in Fedora (or debian or...), at least for now, but there will likely be flow to/from MeeGo to other mainstream distros.
A nice bonus is the fact that the Linux Foundation is at the center, so it's not all controlled by Nokia or Intel. Both companies have been improving their FOSS practices in the last few years. With luck in the not so distant future, a truly free/open phone will be readily available.
-Jeff http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Fedora
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Peter Robinson