Aeolus Team Leads

Martyn Taylor mtaylor at redhat.com
Fri Jan 11 17:56:18 UTC 2013


Hey Jiri

On 01/10/2013 11:39 AM, Jiří Stránský wrote:
> Martyn,
>
> you are right that reopening discussions on already resolved issues is 
> bad. But I think it either means that the decision really needs 
> revising, or that some team members have concerns that need to be 
> addressed/explained.
>
>
> I'm sure you wrote this mail because of yesterday's state machine 
> discussion. I believe all that has been said was necessary to be said. 
> I think it would be demotivating if the discussions were to be cut. I 
> think it's important that people at least know that their points have 
> been heard by others and it's then very interesting to hear the 
> response. Speaking for myself, that's perfectly enough for me. I'm 
> very happy that I had the chance to voice the concerns and if it 
> doesn't change things, it's perfectly fine. The reason why I bring 
> this stuff up is that it gives me comfort to follow decisions when I 
> know that all arguments have been taken into account. Thanks for 
> having the patience to talk about it once more :)
Please do not focus on the specific conversation we had the other day.  
My reasoning for sending this email was not based on a particular 
conversation or individual.  In fact this is something I have brought up 
many times in the past with my line manager and in the past have sought 
more subtle alternate approaches.  I could have easily sent this email 6 
month or 1 year ago.

I want to reiterate here, that I think debate is a good thing.  It is a 
healthy process, as a result of debate we gain a better understanding of 
the problem domain and as such can make better decisions on design and 
approach.  However, I do feel that quite regularly we struggle to meet 
consensus and when consensus is eventually reached it's easily toppled.  
When I proposed a team lead here, the intention is not to demotivate 
team members, to push my own agenda or to remove people form the right 
to their say.  But rather a request to add in decisiveness to our 
process.  Maybe, it would lessen the blow if I were to suggest Mike or 
Angus to be the Team Leads here?

>
> Also, I think there have been new points made about the 
> callback/polling/jobs issue yesterday, so I don't think of the 
> discussion as a lost time.
>
> To address the issue of having team leads, I see three main parts to 
> team decision making:
>
> 1) Is the decision right?
>
> 2) Does it have support among the team members?
>
> 3) Was the decision fast?
>
> I believe that picking a team lead could help point 3, but it could 
> also hurt 1 and 2. I believe that joint opinions usually produce 
> better results than individuals, even if the individuals are experts. 
> Also, if a team member has to accept a decision they don't agree with, 
> it's easier to do so when the decision is reached by discussion and 
> backed by multiple people rather than backed by a team lead.
Even when we make decisions via coming to a consensus across the 
community.  I do feel that not all people support the decision and often 
people lose interest/energy in the topic and simply decide to give in 
for the sake of their sanity.  This actually hurts your points 1 and 2 
above.  I feel having a team lead in this situation would actually 
result in a more supported decision across the team as all opinions are 
heard and since the topic is not left to go on and on people will not 
lose their heart.

If the community comes to a decision rapidly and its acted upon in a 
reasonable time frame.  I see no reason why the tech lead would need to 
intervene.  It is only in the situations I have described above which 
are not solved in a timely manner when I believe intervention needs to 
be taken.
>
> To sum it up, I do not oppose the idea of having a team lead per each 
> Aeolus subproject and having Tech Cabal for cross-project issues. I 
> think having team leads might be useful, but I view team leads as a 
> double-bladed axe, not a silver bullet. When trying to speed up 
> decisions and cut down on (frustrating) discussions, the team leads 
> would have to be extra careful not to demotivate team members (hurt 
> points 1 and 2 I wrote above). I believe a good team lead should 
> explain decisions and address concerns, so imho chances are that in 
> the end the situation about decisions and discussions wouldn't be much 
> different from what we have now. However, it's still good if someone 
> can moderate and push things forward, something like an Awesome at a 
> cabal.

I understand you concerns.  Demotivating people is the last thing I want 
to happen.  I don't believe that people should be silenced by some 
overlord.  I see the team lead as a arbitrator for when debate on issues 
goes on longer than a reasonable time frame.
>
> Take care,
>
> J.

Regards

Martyn
>
> On 9.1.2013 20:32, Martyn Taylor wrote:
>> Gents,
>>
>> We are stuck in a pattern where, after hours/days of frustrating 
>> debate, we create
>> delicate balances of agreement on topics only to have our consensus 
>> break
>> when a new point of view is interjected or another conversation
>> takes place.  I really think it is time to add some layer of
>> leadership to the team.  Our team is simply too large to act as a
>> democracy.
>>
>> I realise that the Tech Cabal is an attempt to address the
>> aforementioned problems, but I do not feel that adding another 
>> sub-democracy
>> can help us in this issue.  The Cabal has its advantages
>> when trying to solve integration/cross project problems, but I don't
>> think it helps us steer individual projects.  I really think we need
>> technical leads that have the power to make decisions, or at the very 
>> least to
>> decide when debate is closed and carry forward ideas that have been 
>> agreed upon.
>> This is how the majority of projects both inside and outside of 
>> RedHat operate.
>> I'm not sure why we do not have this in Aeolus, but I'd be much
>> happier in my position if I had some clear direction on approach,
>> whether I agreed with that approach or not.  Let me be clear and say
>> I don't expect Team Leads to simply make all and every decision
>> alone and dictate to the rest of the team.  Rather, we need someone who
>> listens to all points of view and makes a decision and takes
>> responsibility for it.
>>
>> How do you guys feel about this idea?
>> Would you be willing to give up some control for clear direction?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>



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