Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
--Max
Disclaimer: I like Python a lot .... a WHOLE lot ...
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Max Spevack mspevack@redhat.com wrote:
Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
A lot of things in the Fedora community are done in Python so moving to Python could bring in some other folks who don't know (or rather not do) Ruby.
As for maintainability, that is more so on how the code is implemented IMHO and what the languages provide ... so one isn't really better than the other one.
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
For our community Python will probably open the door up for more people to contribute ... for people outside our community I think either language will do.
--Max _______________________________________________ ekg mailing list ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/ekg
What is the language skills of those who contribute? Obviously there is some level of a Ruby language base ... what would people rather write in given the choice? For me I favour Python over Ruby ... but Ruby more than most other languages.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Milner" steve@gnulinux.net To: "Community health scanner" ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:37:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: summary of FOSDEM ekg discussion
Disclaimer: I like Python a lot .... a WHOLE lot ...
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Max Spevack mspevack@redhat.com wrote:
Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
A lot of things in the Fedora community are done in Python so moving to Python could bring in some other folks who don't know (or rather not do) Ruby.
As for maintainability, that is more so on how the code is implemented IMHO and what the languages provide ... so one isn't really better than the other one.
[MPD] It's true we do have more folks that prefer Python. I personally prefer Python for /some/ things, though text processing is not one of them. What we are doing is really rather simple, so a port doesn't achieve much at all. However I'm not going to try to stop that rewrite from happening if that's what is holding people back from trying to get involved; personally I would hope that any simple dynamic language would be ok as long as we don't introduce complex architecture -- which could happen anywhere regardless of language choice. I am always suspicious of rewrites for sake of language.
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
For our community Python will probably open the door up for more people to contribute ... for people outside our community I think either language will do.
[MPD] And knowing more than one language and the differences between them is good for your health. I think if that means we package a few more Ruby modules in Fedora, that's goodness that helps out Fedora as a ecosystem for Rails developers.
--Max _______________________________________________ ekg mailing list ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/ekg
What is the language skills of those who contribute? Obviously there is some level of a Ruby language base ... what would people rather write in given the choice? For me I favour Python over Ruby ... but Ruby more than most other languages. _______________________________________________ ekg mailing list ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/ekg
2009/2/10 Michael DeHaan mdehaan@redhat.com:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Milner" steve@gnulinux.net To: "Community health scanner" ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 5:37:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: summary of FOSDEM ekg discussion
Disclaimer: I like Python a lot .... a WHOLE lot ...
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Max Spevack mspevack@redhat.com wrote:
Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
A lot of things in the Fedora community are done in Python so moving to Python could bring in some other folks who don't know (or rather not do) Ruby.
As for maintainability, that is more so on how the code is implemented IMHO and what the languages provide ... so one isn't really better than the other one.
This is also true, but one factor of maintainability is the training and experience of the maintainers too. Asking a C programmer to do mission critical maintainence on an Erlang app is asking for trouble too.
[MPD] It's true we do have more folks that prefer Python. I personally prefer Python for /some/ things, though text processing is not one of them. What we are doing is really rather simple, so a port doesn't achieve much at all. However I'm not going to try to stop that rewrite from happening if that's what is holding people back from trying to get involved; personally I would hope that any simple dynamic language would be ok as long as we don't introduce complex architecture -- which could happen anywhere regardless of language choice. I am always suspicious of rewrites for sake of language.
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
For our community Python will probably open the door up for more people to contribute ... for people outside our community I think either language will do.
[MPD] And knowing more than one language and the differences between them is good for your health. I think if that means we package a few more Ruby modules in Fedora, that's goodness that helps out Fedora as a ecosystem for Rails developers.
In the long term, yes, we would benefit Ruby developers. If i had no deadlines, i would consider this a pretty important goal. But right now, i'm dealing with so many other projects and things that i don't want to have to take the time to learn a new language, new APIs, practice packaging for Ruby, and dealing with all the overhead. It simply is not an efficient use of my time.
-Yaakov
In the long term, yes, we would benefit Ruby developers. If i had no deadlines, i would consider this a pretty important goal. But right now, i'm dealing with so many other projects and things that i don't want to have to take the time to learn a new language, new APIs, practice packaging for Ruby, and dealing with all the overhead. It simply is not an efficient use of my time.
-Yaakov
ekg mailing list ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/ekg
The differences between Ruby and Python can be learned in a couple of hours. However if EKG is only going to be improved by you rewriting it, do so. This will make the 3rd rewrite. When will the fourth happen?
--Michael
(Apologies on the quoting, using the mail reader web app)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Spevack" mspevack@redhat.com To: ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:39:10 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: summary of FOSDEM ekg discussion
Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
[MPD] I see no reason to not let a v3 be Python if folks feel better with this, though I also personally distaste language wars and see that being a waste of time to express preferences. If allow someone to say Python > Ruby I also allow someone to say, let's port it to Java/Mono, in which case I will want to hurt small furry animals. Ruby is more than capable.
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
[MPD] Cobbler's sucking up all of my time. I'd still like to have some sort of involvement in terms of ideas and advice/leadership, but I really would like to see us find more resources to work on it and not depend on me.
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
[MPD] I disagree that this makes the future any better. Ruby is superior at text processing (better regex module), for instance. What other things do we need that Ruby doesn't have? Not much.
--Max _______________________________________________ ekg mailing list ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/ekg
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 12:33:49PM -0500, Michael DeHaan wrote:
[MPD] Cobbler's sucking up all of my time. I'd still like to have some sort of involvement in terms of ideas and advice/leadership, but I really would like to see us find more resources to work on it and not depend on me.
In particular I would personally ask you to continue in this regard. EKG is a great way for you to continue to show your strategic community vision that has been spilling out of you all over the place. ;-) Kudos on that, more of that, let's make EKG an expression of that vision.
- Karsten
2009/2/10 Michael DeHaan mdehaan@redhat.com:
(Apologies on the quoting, using the mail reader web app)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Spevack" mspevack@redhat.com To: ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:39:10 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: summary of FOSDEM ekg discussion
Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
[MPD] I see no reason to not let a v3 be Python if folks feel better with this, though I also personally distaste language wars and see that being a waste of time to express preferences. If allow someone to say Python > Ruby I also allow someone to say, let's port it to Java/Mono, in which case I will want to hurt small furry animals. Ruby is more than capable.
Yes, let's. Actually, no. Seriously, Ruby's a great language, but that's not the best reason to use it. Perl is also very good at text processing the exact same way that Ruby is also good at it. That said, i also need a good database modeling system, and my short list for good database interfaces is very short. There's only one system on it, and it's not Ruby based.
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
[MPD] Cobbler's sucking up all of my time. I'd still like to have some sort of involvement in terms of ideas and advice/leadership, but I really would like to see us find more resources to work on it and not depend on me.
Feel free to participate in the mailing list discussions then. :). I won't keep you out.
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
[MPD] I disagree that this makes the future any better. Ruby is superior at text processing (better regex module), for instance. What other things do we need that Ruby doesn't have? Not much.
It doesn't make the future 'better'. It makes my job easier and better. Max needs me to get some results for a bunch of pointy haired people who cut multi digit checks quite often. A significant bit of the graphing relies on database processing and not text processing.
The real question though, is not if Ruby is a better language. It's a question of what i'm better at.
-Yaakov
Yaakov Nemoy wrote:
2009/2/10 Michael DeHaan mdehaan@redhat.com:
(Apologies on the quoting, using the mail reader web app)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Max Spevack" mspevack@redhat.com To: ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 11:39:10 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: summary of FOSDEM ekg discussion
Yaakov and I spoke about EKG at FOSDEM.
I'll let him lay out some of the roadmap/feature stuff we talked about, but I want to propose a larger question to the list, and especially to Michael:
The first item on the agenda was "is Ruby really the language that is going to make this project accessible to a wider number of contributors, and most maintainable for the future?" followed by "if we have a clear list of enhancements and/or new features, we should decide if Ruby or Python is this project's future before we write them."
[MPD] I see no reason to not let a v3 be Python if folks feel better with this, though I also personally distaste language wars and see that being a waste of time to express preferences. If allow someone to say Python > Ruby I also allow someone to say, let's port it to Java/Mono, in which case I will want to hurt small furry animals. Ruby is more than capable.
Yes, let's. Actually, no. Seriously, Ruby's a great language, but that's not the best reason to use it. Perl is also very good at text processing the exact same way that Ruby is also good at it. That said, i also need a good database modeling system, and my short list for good database interfaces is very short. There's only one system on it, and it's not Ruby based.
I need not site the full explanation, do I?
Ruby is good at text processing and also has a non-sucky OO module and can be written in ways that are not as idiomatic.
ActiveRecord also works plenty well.
So, in short:
Michael, how much of your own personal time do you see yourself devoting to EKG in the next 3 months? I say 3 months, because that is the timeline for development that I want to work on in order to have EKG meet the CommArch team's goals. Do you still see yourself as the lead developer of this project, or is it up to CommArch to find the engineering resources (which for the moment will be Yaakov) to take this project further?
[MPD] Cobbler's sucking up all of my time. I'd still like to have some sort of involvement in terms of ideas and advice/leadership, but I really would like to see us find more resources to work on it and not depend on me.
Feel free to participate in the mailing list discussions then. :). I won't keep you out.
And somewhat separate from that question, is it worth spending (at Yaakov's estimation) 10 days or so to rewrite the core of the code into Python, setting it up for a better future?
[MPD] I disagree that this makes the future any better. Ruby is superior at text processing (better regex module), for instance. What other things do we need that Ruby doesn't have? Not much.
It doesn't make the future 'better'. It makes my job easier and better. Max needs me to get some results for a bunch of pointy haired people who cut multi digit checks quite often. A significant bit of the graphing relies on database processing and not text processing.
The real question though, is not if Ruby is a better language. It's a question of what i'm better at.
Fair enough, you're doing the work -- just don't lose any existing features in the port while you're throwing code away.
You'll also have to write the gchart stuff or use a Python analog.
-Yaakov _______________________________________________ ekg mailing list ekg@lists.fedorahosted.org https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo/ekg