On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 at 10:19, Wolfgang Pfeiffer <roto(a)gmx.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:48:26PM -0500, John Mellor wrote:
>On 2019-12-30 5:52 p.m., Chris Murphy wrote:
>>On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 8:02 AM John Mellor <john.mellor(a)gmail.com>
>>I've complained about this issue before. Its a defective design
>>decision made by the Gnome people, some of whom I suspect to be
>>ex-Windows people trying to sabotage the desktop ;^0
>>Your email is 1) inconsiderate, specifically it is vapid and without
>>thought. It's not rational. It's not factual. 2) it is not respectful,
>>specifically it's transparently an intent to evoke an emotional
>>response by using "Windows" and "sabotage" as insults. You
>>accusing people you do not know, have no evidence of, of willfully,
>>intentionally, destroying your experience and the experience of
>Thank you for providing a link to the CofC document. I may have been
>misinterpreted in my attempt at humour (note the emoji in the
>context), and will therefore refrain from such in the presence of a
>few people with sore funnybones
Supported. In other times I tried humour in Linux places - but
are good it won't often be understood as such any more. Not with even a
thousand smileys ...
It is important to realize that a large number of linux users are not native
English speakers. Many of these users will have difficulties recognizing
and understanding humorous posts.
>However, I believe that you have completely missed the point of the
>threads. If Gnome (for example) is not API-safe and failures may
>occur when upgrading its components and/or apps, then a suitable
>workaround would possibly be to install only those app updates over a
>reboot, and allow the other packages to be updated normally and
>without requiring a reboot.
If I can manage my system with a CLI, I try it. Instead of using
With a gui you normally have an extra chance of failure - so removing
the chance, by avoiding it, is my effort to get the job done as fast and
safe as possible. Keep it simple. If you don't need the extra layer
of a GUI (Gnome or others): why use it? So even for an upgrade I use
the command line on a TTY, with a mostly shut-down X. Works nearly
flawlessly on Fedora since around three years ..
But don't forget this: the whole idea behind these reboots and offline
updates, and its implementation, seems to allow a typical Fedora user,
without too much knowledge about the system, to upgrade their system
with minimal effort and minimized risk. Meaning more users are
getting enabled to run the system. And the stats, as quoted by
R. Hughes earlier, seem to confirm they're right with this approach.
All linux users benefit from reductions in the problems encountered by
new users. Not only are new users more likely to stick with linux, but
demands (on a per user basis) on developer and support resources
My favorite part in this whole thread, because I think it's honest,
"The Unix that you think you are using does not exist any more, I'm
sorry to say."
Basically with Linux in 2020 one neither has a very UNIX-like system,
nor is it Windows: it's just a modern Linux, some sort of hybrid of
both a more UNIX-like Linux and Windows, produced as a multi-billion
dollar industry product. And I have doubts it's "defective". It's
different, and its target consumers seem to be quite different from
those in its early days.
To drive the point with the industry-designed Linux home: Remember
that around 2017 the Linux kernel alone had
"1,670 first-time [!] developers over the course of just under 13
months. Remember that 4,319 developers overall contributed to the
kernel during this time". (Quoted from the Linux Kernel Report 2017)
And only 8.2% did their work on the kernel unpaid (again: see Linux
Kernel Report 2017).
This simply means: the old nerd tool and UNIX-like Linux is pretty
much gone. And to answer the question in the subject line: Yes, there
are aspects in a modern Fedora that are more Windows-like than the old
Linux. And no: I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing.
So if people really want a UNIX-like system, then, sorry, they need
something else - and there are still options out there for that.
George N. White III