On KDE I've got three keyboard layouts installed- US English, Dvorak, and Hebrew. I go nuts switching over to US English everytime that I need to perform a keyboard shortcut. How can I have the keyboard shortcuts work as if the keyboard is always qwerty? I'd like to configure it at the X level rather than at the KDE level, but I'd accept any solution that works. Thanks in advance.
Dotan Cohen
http://dotancohen.com/eng/movies.php http://what-is-what.com/what_is/skype.html
On 12/27/06, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
On KDE I've got three keyboard layouts installed- US English, Dvorak, and Hebrew. I go nuts switching over to US English everytime that I need to perform a keyboard shortcut. How can I have the keyboard shortcuts work as if the keyboard is always qwerty? I'd like to configure it at the X level rather than at the KDE level, but I'd accept any solution that works. Thanks in advance.
What do you mean by keyboard shortcuts. Can you give an example?
I know for emacs, doing ctrl-x ctrl-s and ctrl-x ctrl-c is really awkword in dvorak, so I've remaped ctrl-x to ctrl-o, ctrl-s to ctrl-e, and ctrl-c to ctrl-u. This way I can save and quit much easier. This is done by placing the following in my .emacs file:
(global-set-key (kbd "C-o") ctl-x-map) (global-set-key (kbd "C-x C-e") (lookup-key global-map (kbd "C-x C-s"))) (global-set-key (kbd "C-x C-u") (lookup-key global-map (kbd "C-x C-c")))
You're probably looking for something much more general, but if you use emacs, this quick fix will save a lot of finger-pain.
On 28/12/06, Dylan Semler dylan.semler@gmail.com wrote:
On 12/27/06, Dotan Cohen dotancohen@gmail.com wrote:
On KDE I've got three keyboard layouts installed- US English, Dvorak, and Hebrew. I go nuts switching over to US English everytime that I need to perform a keyboard shortcut. How can I have the keyboard shortcuts work as if the keyboard is always qwerty? I'd like to configure it at the X level rather than at the KDE level, but I'd accept any solution that works. Thanks in advance.
What do you mean by keyboard shortcuts. Can you give an example?
I know for emacs, doing ctrl-x ctrl-s and ctrl-x ctrl-c is really awkword in dvorak, so I've remaped ctrl-x to ctrl-o, ctrl-s to ctrl-e, and ctrl-c to ctrl-u. This way I can save and quit much easier. This is done by placing the following in my .emacs file:
(global-set-key (kbd "C-o") ctl-x-map) (global-set-key (kbd "C-x C-e") (lookup-key global-map (kbd "C-x C-s"))) (global-set-key (kbd "C-x C-u") (lookup-key global-map (kbd "C-x C-c")))
You're probably looking for something much more general, but if you use emacs, this quick fix will save a lot of finger-pain.
In qwerty, I use Ctrl-V to paste in every application. In Hebrew layout, I must switch first to English layout, Ctrl-V, then swtich back to Hebrew layout in order to paste. I'd like Ctrl-×” (which is on the same key as V) to paste.
Dotan Cohen
http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/107/19/adams_bryan/you_want_it_you_got_i... http://what-is-what.com/what_is/protocol.html
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 00:28 -0500, Dylan Semler wrote:
I know for emacs, doing ctrl-x ctrl-s and ctrl-x ctrl-c is really awkword in dvorak
For those who find some key combinations awkward, I'll point out that when you're taught to type properly, you find out that two-key combinations are supposed to be done with two hands. One hand does the qualifier, the other does the key.
i.e. For qwerty, you'd do right hand CTRL key, left hand C key.
You're not supposed to do them one-handed, no keyboard is really suited for that. That's why it's painful to do. It's also one of the reasons that we have shift and caps lock keys.
Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2006-12-28 at 00:28 -0500, Dylan Semler wrote:
I know for emacs, doing ctrl-x ctrl-s and ctrl-x ctrl-c is really awkword in dvorak
For those who find some key combinations awkward, I'll point out that when you're taught to type properly, you find out that two-key combinations are supposed to be done with two hands. One hand does the qualifier, the other does the key.
i.e. For qwerty, you'd do right hand CTRL key, left hand C key.
Funny, I've been doing Ctrl+C with my left hand only for the past 30 years and it never seemed to be "improper". What seems "improper" to me is to move my right hand off its "home" keys and use my right index finger to push my left index finger out of the way since it is hovering over the C when my pinky finger of my left hand moves to the Ctrl key.
You're not supposed to do them one-handed, no keyboard is really suited for that. That's why it's painful to do. It's also one of the reasons that we have shift and caps lock keys.
I always thought people were supposed to do things in the way that is the most comfortable or least painful.
Tim:
For those who find some key combinations awkward, I'll point out that when you're taught to type properly, you find out that two-key combinations are supposed to be done with two hands. One hand does the qualifier, the other does the key.
i.e. For qwerty, you'd do right hand CTRL key, left hand C key.
Ed Greshko:
Funny, I've been doing Ctrl+C with my left hand only for the past 30 years and it never seemed to be "improper".
I can do it both ways. One-handed typing requires some painful contortions. Even worse, is that it's mostly with my left hand, and I'm right-handed. Though I usually end up doing it that way, out of bad habit. But if I'm doing a lot of repetive cutting and pasting, where search and replace isn't suitable, I do use both hands for CTRL + C and CTRL + V typing.
What seems "improper" to me is to move my right hand off its "home" keys and use my right index finger to push my left index finger out of the way since it is hovering over the C when my pinky finger of my left hand moves to the Ctrl key.
I really can't visualise what you mean here. You're using one hand to manipulate the fingers of the other, so you can type CTRL C with the left hand?
You're not supposed to do them one-handed, no keyboard is really suited for that. That's why it's painful to do. It's also one of the reasons that we have shift and caps lock keys.
I always thought people were supposed to do things in the way that is the most comfortable or least painful.
The point is that the keyboards were designed to be used in a way, which is relatively easy to do, even if not brilliantly efficient. When you operate against the design, which is possible, it can be akward and painful.
To anyone who's ever thought that a keyboard was designed as a torture device, they're probably correct, but they are quite easy to use if you learn how. Proper touch typing is easier than hunt and peck. It's faster, and less painful. It's worth it if you use keyboards a lot. It's also worth finding a decent keyboard, many are just plain crap.
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Tim wrote:
Tim:
For those who find some key combinations awkward, I'll point out that when you're taught to type properly, you find out that two-key combinations are supposed to be done with two hands. One hand does the qualifier, the other does the key.
i.e. For qwerty, you'd do right hand CTRL key, left hand C key.
Ed Greshko:
Funny, I've been doing Ctrl+C with my left hand only for the past 30 years and it never seemed to be "improper".
I can do it both ways. One-handed typing requires some painful contortions. Even worse, is that it's mostly with my left hand, and I'm right-handed. Though I usually end up doing it that way, out of bad habit. But if I'm doing a lot of repetive cutting and pasting, where search and replace isn't suitable, I do use both hands for CTRL + C and CTRL + V typing.
What seems "improper" to me is to move my right hand off its "home" keys and use my right index finger to push my left index finger out of the way since it is hovering over the C when my pinky finger of my left hand moves to the Ctrl key.
I really can't visualise what you mean here. You're using one hand to manipulate the fingers of the other, so you can type CTRL C with the left hand?
I think Ed means left-hand CTRL key, right-hand C key. That's not what Tim suggested and it's not what I'd think of for a two-handed combination.
I can't resist pointing out that the Microsoft "innovation" of putting the left control key to the left of the space bar is the devil's inspiration. Long-time Unix hands and early PC users will remember keyboards with the CTRL key next to the A, where God intended it to be. (You can still get them from Sun, and I always swap my control and caps-lock keys in Prefereces -> Keyboard -> Layout Options.
That makes one-handed control-key combos a *lot* easier, and it makes using Emacs a dramatically different experience than otherwise.
You're not supposed to do them one-handed, no keyboard is really suited for that. That's why it's painful to do. It's also one of the reasons that we have shift and caps lock keys.
I always thought people were supposed to do things in the way that is the most comfortable or least painful.
The point is that the keyboards were designed to be used in a way, which is relatively easy to do, even if not brilliantly efficient. When you operate against the design, which is possible, it can be akward and painful.
To anyone who's ever thought that a keyboard was designed as a torture device, they're probably correct, but they are quite easy to use if you learn how. Proper touch typing is easier than hunt and peck. It's faster, and less painful. It's worth it if you use keyboards a lot. It's also worth finding a decent keyboard, many are just plain crap.
I've modified the subject line, a bit. The original poster still hasn't found their answer.
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 07:25 -0500, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
I think Ed means left-hand CTRL key, right-hand C key. That's not what Tim suggested and it's not what I'd think of for a two-handed combination.
Okay, I can see that, now. It was just the comment about pushing a finger out of the way that threw me.
Yes, I've done the same thing. When doing numerous cut and pastes, and little else, I've just used which ever fingers seemed not busy. But it's not practical to do that if you're doing cut and paste while also typing. There's too much gross hand movement - you cannot do it fast.
I can't resist pointing out that the Microsoft "innovation" of putting the left control key to the left of the space bar is the devil's inspiration.
Can we really blame the evil empire for the IBM keyboard layout? I thought it predated them. At least dual control keys, one each side, allows for proper typing, like the two shift keys. I just wish the ALT keys had stayed as a way of typing alternate characters, not got subverted into more hotkeys, and generally abstract ones, as well.
Long-time Unix hands and early PC users will remember keyboards with the CTRL key next to the A, where God intended it to be.
I can't recall one on an IBM PC clone, but certainly on other personal computers, long before the 286. While it may help with some things, there's a few CTRL + <something> combinations which are awkward to do if you only have one control key on the board.
Coming from a background of typing before there was computers around us, I found it more than a bit of a pain that there was a CTRL key where I expected to find a SHIFT lock. Later on, finding a CAPS lock instead of shift, was another oddity. Though probably a more practical offering. Let's face it, it's common enough to want to type a whole word or two as all capitals, it's very unusual to need to type several symbols from above the number row.
One thing I really really hate, is what happens when you press shift while the caps lock is on. tYPICALLY YOU GET THIS CRAP (some gumby thought it'd be a good idea to XOR the shift and caps locks). Whereas, if you were a typist, you'd get the first letter still in capitals, as you expect, then the lock is released when you release the shift key. Thankfully, in Linux, you can configure away that stupidity.
Tim wrote:
typing. There's too much gross hand movement - you cannot do it fast.
You can't, I can.
As Dotan has already pointed out, this kind of "discussion" will go no where. I've seen "hunt and peckers" type faster than "touch typers" simply because they were just "peckers" and were not hunting.
But, who really cares? I do it my way, you do it your's. I'm happy, you're happy.
I don't have any suggestions for Dotan on his original question since I don't have his issue. So, I'm sorry I interrupted the thread with nothing to offer.
Tim:
typing. There's too much gross hand movement - you cannot do it fast.
Ed Greshko:
You can't, I can.
I would challenge anybody to prove that they can move their whole forearms, wrists and hands, into a new position, quicker than moving a couple of fingers. It's a physical impossibility. And I don't just mean humanly physically impossibly, I mean physics. Large objects versus small objects with inertia to work against.
Likewise, for hunt and peck. Individual abilities aside, you're never going to see a two-fingered typist, hunt and peck or otherwise, beat a touch typist using all 10 fingers at 100 wpm. It's another physical impossibility.
As to topic drift, that's why we have threading and subject lines. I've changed the subject line, but don't have a client that lets me break the references headers (it's been a while since I've seen one that lets you manually do such things). And only those desiring to participate actually do so...
On 29/12/06, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
Tim:
typing. There's too much gross hand movement - you cannot do it fast.
Ed Greshko:
You can't, I can.
I would challenge anybody to prove that they can move their whole forearms, wrists and hands, into a new position, quicker than moving a couple of fingers. It's a physical impossibility. And I don't just mean humanly physically impossibly, I mean physics. Large objects versus small objects with inertia to work against.
As much as I didn't want this branch of the discussion to occur, I must make a single comment to it. Regarding the physics you mention: you say that a large (presumably massive) object cannot be accelerated quicker than a smaller object. That is true given a consistant force applied against them. However, if the force being applied to the larger object is larger than f*M/m than it will in fact accelerate quicker. In that respect, I dare suggest that the arm muscles (vs. the finger musles and respective masses) meet this requirement. Maybe an anatomy specialist could correct me?
Likewise, for hunt and peck. Individual abilities aside, you're never going to see a two-fingered typist, hunt and peck or otherwise, beat a touch typist using all 10 fingers at 100 wpm. It's another physical impossibility.
Unless they've got a T9 dictionary and only ten keys! I once dated a girl who out-typed me on her Nokia mobile phone vs. me on my A4 wireless keyboard.
As to topic drift, that's why we have threading and subject lines. I've changed the subject line, but don't have a client that lets me break the references headers (it's been a while since I've seen one that lets you manually do such things). And only those desiring to participate actually do so...
That's allright for me, Gmail breaks threads on subject. Most of the time it's a pain (and there's no manual override) but for once it works to my benefit.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/short_answer/what_is_a_firewall.html http://what-is-what.com/what_is/bios.html
On 29/12/06, Matthew Saltzman mjs@ces.clemson.edu wrote:
I really can't visualise what you mean here. You're using one hand to manipulate the fingers of the other, so you can type CTRL C with the left hand?
I think Ed means left-hand CTRL key, right-hand C key. That's not what Tim suggested and it's not what I'd think of for a two-handed combination.
I can't resist pointing out that the Microsoft "innovation" of putting the left control key to the left of the space bar is the devil's inspiration. Long-time Unix hands and early PC users will remember keyboards with the CTRL key next to the A, where God intended it to be. (You can still get them from Sun, and I always swap my control and caps-lock keys in Prefereces -> Keyboard -> Layout Options.
That makes one-handed control-key combos a *lot* easier, and it makes using Emacs a dramatically different experience than otherwise.
Matthew, Please, I'd like to keep this thread on topic. I very much need the keyboard shortcuts in my Feodra box functioning. I'd appreciate it if you'd start another thread to discuss the merits of different methods of typing keyboard shortcuts. The Fedora list goes off topic very easily and it won't be the first time that valuable threads are lost in the noise.
If anybody has any information on helping me bind keyboard shortcuts to the physical keys, and not to the letter that they represent (as I use layouts other than US English) then I'd appreciate any tips. Thanks.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/php.html http://englishlirics.com
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Dotan Cohen wrote:
On 29/12/06, Matthew Saltzman mjs@ces.clemson.edu wrote:
I really can't visualise what you mean here. You're using one hand to manipulate the fingers of the other, so you can type CTRL C with the left hand?
I think Ed means left-hand CTRL key, right-hand C key. That's not what Tim suggested and it's not what I'd think of for a two-handed combination.
I can't resist pointing out that the Microsoft "innovation" of putting the left control key to the left of the space bar is the devil's inspiration. Long-time Unix hands and early PC users will remember keyboards with the CTRL key next to the A, where God intended it to be. (You can still get them from Sun, and I always swap my control and caps-lock keys in Prefereces -> Keyboard -> Layout Options.
That makes one-handed control-key combos a *lot* easier, and it makes using Emacs a dramatically different experience than otherwise.
Matthew, Please, I'd like to keep this thread on topic. I very much need the keyboard shortcuts in my Feodra box functioning. I'd appreciate it if you'd start another thread to discuss the merits of different methods of typing keyboard shortcuts. The Fedora list goes off topic very easily and it won't be the first time that valuable threads are lost in the noise.
Yeah, sorry, just couldn't resist. (I'm not the first one, and I'm sure I won't be the last...)
If anybody has any information on helping me bind keyboard shortcuts to the physical keys, and not to the letter that they represent (as I use layouts other than US English) then I'd appreciate any tips. Thanks.
OK Ob. original thread topic:
Have you looked at xmodmap and its GUI xkeycaps?
On 29/12/06, Matthew Saltzman mjs@ces.clemson.edu wrote:
Have you looked at xmodmap and its GUI xkeycaps?
Thanks. I see that the keycode returned is the same independant of the keyboard map. So I assume that I'd like to bind keyboard shortcuts to keycodes. But how is this done?
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/voip.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/164/dixie_chicks.php
On 29/12/06, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
For those who find some key combinations awkward, I'll point out that when you're taught to type properly, you find out that two-key combinations are supposed to be done with two hands. One hand does the qualifier, the other does the key.
i.e. For qwerty, you'd do right hand CTRL key, left hand C key.
You're not supposed to do them one-handed, no keyboard is really suited for that. That's why it's painful to do. It's also one of the reasons that we have shift and caps lock keys.
Thank you for the tip, Tim, but please don't ruin this thread. The Fedora list has a [great||horrible] tendancy to take important subject off topic. I need to reconfigure my shortcuts, and I don't want this thread turnng into a one-hand vs. two-hand typing flame war.
Please, if anybody can assist me in reconfiguring the keyboard shortcuts I would most appreciate it. Thanks.
Dotan Cohen
http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/128/108/carey_mariah/daydream.php http://what-is-what.com/what_is/webpage.html
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 09:49 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
Please, if anybody can assist me in reconfiguring the keyboard shortcuts I would most appreciate it. Thanks.
I would imagine you'd want to be paying to the raw scan codes (the positions of the keys being pressed), rather than what purpose someone wants to give to certain keys (e.g. that it's the letter A).
The other thing that springs to mind, is what about making use of the function keys? Many things ignore them, and you've usually got an array of spare keys about the keyboard you might use directly for cut and paste.
I'd considered using them for something like typing proper punctuation (i.e. symbols there weren't already keys for, and/or had horrible key sequences to type), but only looked briefly at it.
On 29/12/06, Tim ignored_mailbox@yahoo.com.au wrote:
On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 09:49 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:
Please, if anybody can assist me in reconfiguring the keyboard shortcuts I would most appreciate it. Thanks.
I would imagine you'd want to be paying to the raw scan codes (the positions of the keys being pressed), rather than what purpose someone wants to give to certain keys (e.g. that it's the letter A).
Yes, that's quite what I'd like to do. I'm not sure if KDE will look at the raw scan codes, however. At least, I cannot find any documentation on how to do this.
The other thing that springs to mind, is what about making use of the function keys? Many things ignore them, and you've usually got an array of spare keys about the keyboard you might use directly for cut and paste.
I actually do make heavy use of the function keys, usually for what whatever app I'm using has them set to. Opera, for instance, makes wonderful use of them.
Thanks.
Dotan Cohen
http://technology-sleuth.com/technical_answer/what_is_a_firewall.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/653/frukwan.php
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