Some random questions...
1) Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
2) Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Bill
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Subversion please. If not CVS is ok.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Defintely if possible and handled properly.
Best regards,
Adnan
On 2/22/07, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Some random questions...
Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Bill
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On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 11:39:10AM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Speaking for the Welsh translation group CVS is ok because it is available on Windows and some translators prefer to use windows based po tools on their desktop. Git/Mercurial and friends might be problematic, especially as git requires some skill to use and easily breaks.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Much of the translation is already done this way
http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/index.php?lg=en&
and I'm sure Kevin would be delighted to see us use the GPL code if it was useful to Red Hat. Unlike Ubuntu launchpad it is open source and it supports translation of the web environment itself into multiple languages.
Alan
[the bit left in Welsh is a poem, not anything you need to follow to use it
(something like Magical is the wizards fire of ideas that is used to pick old bytes/chunks from the mine of language to be revitalized into the gold of new words ) ]
For a bit of background...
Bill Nottingham (notting@redhat.com) said:
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Already in Fedora hosted projects, we have apps that may need translating in mercurial, git, and CVS....
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
... and this would be the 'simplest' way to hide the SCM details from the translator.
Bill
On 2/22/07, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
svn, cvs is ok.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Sure!
Pootle can be used in Fedora localization, which is similar to rosetta/launchpad. You can check it on, http://pootle.wordforge.org/
Regards, `Jamil
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Bill Nottingham schreef:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Hmm, this would bring a big hassle to the project if we've got to use different SCM's per application. It would complicate matters in any way.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Sure, IIRC we've been asking this. Suggestion aswell, look at Pootle. It's written in Python which is/"would be" considered good by Fedora Infrastructure.
Pootle: http://translate.sourceforge.net/ Demo-site: http://pootle.wordforge.org/
Bart
- -- Bart couf@fedoraproject.org couf@skynet.be key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D 3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial,
subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I don't know... so far, my CVS attempts ended in failure.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through
a web-based application?
Sure thing!
Diosnel
Le jeudi 22 février 2007 à 11:39 -0500, Bill Nottingham a écrit :
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Do you mean that the translation files of chkconfig would be accessible by one (and only one) of git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs ? And that the translation files of (let's say...) anaconda would be accessible by one (and only one) of git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, and that these 2 softwares translation file would not be accessible by the same software ?
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Yes, definitely.
Thomas
Thomas Canniot (thomas.canniot@laposte.net) said:
Do you mean that the translation files of chkconfig would be accessible by one (and only one) of git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs ? And that the translation files of (let's say...) anaconda would be accessible by one (and only one) of git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, and that these 2 softwares translation file would not be accessible by the same software ?
Right.
Bill
Le jeudi 22 février 2007 à 12:52 -0500, Bill Nottingham a écrit :
Thomas Canniot (thomas.canniot@laposte.net) said:
Do you mean that the translation files of chkconfig would be accessible by one (and only one) of git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs ? And that the translation files of (let's say...) anaconda would be accessible by one (and only one) of git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, and that these 2 softwares translation file would not be accessible by the same software ?
Right.
Then my answer is 'no'. I think it is clearly against the simplification process translators were asking for.
Thomas
On Thursday 22 February 2007 18:39:10 Bill Nottingham wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
1. I only know how to use cvs, but i could use anything as long as someone writes a for "dummies" tutorial :) I'dd say it's Ok
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
2. "*all* translating" .. if it's not really "all", it's optional (i could still use cvs), it would be excelent
to, 2007-02-22 kello 11:39 -0500, Bill Nottingham kirjoitti:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I only know CVS and Subversion, but as long as the basic update/commit functionality of the others is not significantly more complicated than that of cvs/svn, I don't see a big problem.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Definitely NOT. Using one's favorite editor will always be quicker and more comfortable than even a very good web-based user interface.
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 07:45:20PM +0200, Lauri Nurmi wrote:
Definitely NOT. Using one's favorite editor will always be quicker and more comfortable than even a very good web-based user interface.
You are assuming the web interface doesn't include functionality for "download, lock, upload, unlock" of a .po file. Kyfieithu does support download in .po but not upload (because it doesn't currently deal with all the locking rights questions that leads to), no idea about pootle although pootle seems to also lack tools for consistency checking/suggestion unless I looked in the wrong place.
Alan
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 12:51 -0500, Alan Cox wrote:
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 07:45:20PM +0200, Lauri Nurmi wrote:
Definitely NOT. Using one's favorite editor will always be quicker and more comfortable than even a very good web-based user interface.
You are assuming the web interface doesn't include functionality for "download, lock, upload, unlock" of a .po file. Kyfieithu does support download in .po but not upload (because it doesn't currently deal with all the locking rights questions that leads to), no idea about pootle although pootle seems to also lack tools for consistency checking/suggestion unless I looked in the wrong place.
Yip you looked in the wrong place:
- It allows suggestions, which a translator can review and include - It include the 40+ checks from the Translate Toolkit which checks for simple things like starting caps, punctuation, etc. The toolkit has just added a language module so the checks can be adapted to each language (this needs integration into Pootle).
Pootle allows upload of files. The default behaviour turns your changes into suggestions, but you can optionally overwrite the file with your changes. This behaviour comes from the idea that we treat version control as authoritative. The advantage being that programmers can make changes in version control and also that some contributors can make changes directly with version control.
Pootle also does terminology matching, across the whole of Pootle or on a per project basis. Plus we can do Translation Memory, not live, but you could easily automate with a cronjob.
On 2/22/07, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Subversion, or maybe cvs. Both can be used in a Windows environment. The other ones I don't know about. I don't like to be forced using a certain tool.
2) Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through
a web-based application?
I would be ok, but I prefer using my translation application of choice. Web is good for viewing information not so much for editing. You don't need to install anything with a web tool, but using an application is faster, has more features and more flexible. It is not that much difference. It would be great if you could have both and let the translator choose...
Em Thursday, 22 de February de 2007 16:39, o Bill Nottingham escreveu:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I rather prefer to use one and only VCS. Separating different applications in different repositories will generate management issues, especially for people like the PT team, which has automatic hourly Web pages to report the translation status.
My suggestion would be to use Subversion (I'm a KDE translator as well, and they've migrated their repositories to SVN - besides the power features and repository frontends). But CVS is OK for us.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Without PO file download/upload features, I won't agree. Most of the time, I'm a massive translator, who updates translations in bursts, and the active PT team has just 2 collaborators at the moment, besides some co-collaborators, so there are no translation conflicts, most of the time.
Besides that, to control translation inconsistencies, spelling errors and syntax errors, the PT team uses the Gettext-Lint (http://gettext-lint.sf.net) automated tools. A Web-only management would be very complicated for us, in that case.
Bill
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Em Qui, 2007-02-22 às 11:39 -0500, Bill Nottingham escreveu:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I'm ok with cvs or subversion. I'm dreaming about something like GNOME's "Dammed Lies" for Fedora on the future. Give a look at: http://l10n.gnome.org/module/
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Yes, but only if the two ways will be available, local and web-based.
Regards, Igor Pires Soares
Igor Pires Soares (igorsoares@gmail.com) said:
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I'm ok with cvs or subversion. I'm dreaming about something like GNOME's "Dammed Lies" for Fedora on the future. Give a look at: http://l10n.gnome.org/module/
Damned Lies is only a stats-based frontend, right - it doesn't actually help you add/submit translations?
Bill
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 11:39:10AM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
It is fine as it is now, but other ways could also be OK.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
I would not appreciate it. I prefer to use my own tools, and then commit it. In some cases this improves my productivity by maybe 80 %.
I would not oppose at system where some may translate via the web and others as they please and checking it in.
Best regards keld
On 2/22/07, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
No, I wouldn't like to have to manage more than one system and set of modules. It's wasteful and error prone - translators are usually not as tech savvy as developers.
CVS is ok for now, but also wouldn't mind if everything moved to SVN as both work on Win just as well.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
I'm open to the option, but haven't seen a good interface yet. The Serbian team is using evaluating Pootle a bit, but it leaves a lot to be desired atm. No diffs or any kind of changelogs, no immediate visual feedback from new suggestions, reviewing suggestions is very unwieldy, if you can find the option that is, as someone already mentioned...
My preference is to edit locally and upload via webUI or commit through CVS/SVN most of the time.
Regards, Miloš
Dana Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:39:10 +0100, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com napisali ste:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
svn or cvs
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Absolutely NOT! translating offline is the only way I have acces to spellchecker, translations database and cross-checking with references. Also, I can work on translation even if my Internet connection is broken (common thing in my country). And, I do not like to use web-browsers for work - browsers are for browsing. For translating jobs I use translation apps.
Instead of this effor I suggest adding a POT column into language progress list.
Best regards Renato
Bill
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From: Renato PaviÄiÄ repavici@globalnet.hr
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
svn or cvs
And an option to download only the file needed when checking out, instead of the whole project.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Absolutely NOT! translating offline is the only way I have acces to spellchecker, translations database and cross-checking with references. Also, I can work on translation even if my Internet connection is broken (common thing in my country). And, I do not like to use web-browsers for work - browsers are for browsing. For translating jobs I use translation apps.
The same to me. I usually work offline. And sometimes my internet connection does not work fine. So, a web-based application would not be useful for me.
Domingo Becker
_________________________________________________________________ Visita MSN Latino Entretenimiento: ¡música, cine, chismes, TV y más...! http://latino.msn.com/entretenimiento/
On Thursday 22 Feb 2007 10:09:10 pm you wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
svn/cvs only as most teams are not very familier with git/mercurial svn/cvs are most commonly used in gnome/kde etc projects
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
No, better to have POT/PO files available thorough web instead to checking out whole modules regrds ABrar
Hi Bill,
2007/2/22, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
No, i wouldn't be OK.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Bill
This question is by far too generic. Tell which one.
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2007/2/22, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I'm ok with cvs. I don't know the other one.
2) Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through
a web-based application?
I'm ok if both ways are available. In case it *only* web-based, I think it is not a good idea.
Bill
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Bill Nottingham kirjoitti viestissään (lähetysaika Thursday 22 February 2007 18:39:10):
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
1) Depending on the app, no. It would be best to just use one VCS, I prefer svn or cvs but any of the others would do if there were good tutorials on how to use them.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
If that would be the only way, then definitely not. I translate one PHP based app with a web interface and it's not nearly as efficient as using my favourite editors and a VCS.
However, a web interface might be one option, if those who want could still use the "traditional" way.
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:39:10 -0000, Bill Nottingham notting@redhat.com wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
Sure, fine, subversion and cvs are common technologies with help all over the place. Where you can improve over some of the other translation projects is to give exact and specific information of what to do for each situation (e.g. regular translation, adding new translation ad nauseam).
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
I have no problems with any package, whether it is web based, application based or anything else, as long as it meets my requirements; as I translate from en_US to en_GB, I only need to change a few strings, the lion's share are copied verbatim. So my major requirement is to be able to easily copy the original text from original to translation, preferably en masse.
dave
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
subversion/cvs OK.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
That's great!
Best Regards, Joel Gump
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 20:26 +0800, joel.gump wrote:
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
subversion/cvs OK.
I would be happy with either git, mercurial, etc, if they help the developers to be more productive or it simplifies the infrastructure. However, the respective tools should be available as packages in Fedora and can be easily installed. In addition, the commands that the translator should be exposed to for the translation work should be simple and well-explained.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Web-based translation has lower responsiveness, when going from one message to the next. Other tools (Rosetta, Pootle) require by default to use the mouse to go to the next message. I find that too distracting. I would see a web-based application beneficial if it allows the team leader to pick and choose those translation domains to make available for web-translation, get many people to contribute in parallel, then export the .po file for final checking and submission. In other works, it would be desirable if the web-application had these modes of working: 1. Completely bypass the web-application, use as now. 2. The team leader picks those packages and makes available through the web-based application. The web-based application allows work in parallel and many submissions, then the team leader to view and pick the appropriate choice. She then may hit an option to send the translation upstream, or export as .po file and upload using svn, cvs, etc. 3. Complete web-based translation. No requirement to deal with version control systems.
I recognise that all this may add too much complexity to the translation system.
Simos
Bill Nottingham wrote:
Some random questions...
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with having to use git, mercurial, subversion, or cvs, depending on which app you're translating?
I prefer using single system, subversion is highly preferred. In my opinion, cross SCM should be handled on the server side, where it is more accessible to administrators, and less problem to the translators.
I'm sure there is a way to cross import various SCM repository to subversion. If not, then the next logical, forward thinking way is to have a standard way to store SCM data, so that it is accessible to various SCM out there.
- Would you, as a translator, be OK with doing all translating through a web-based application?
Yes, and no.
Yes, if it can help improve the participation of new translators.
No, because I prefer doing it the current way, by updating the source via CVS, translating it, then committing it to the repository.
Web application is not a blanket solution to all problem.
Bill
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