Hi all,
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
For example, if I download the Finnish translation of Anaconda from http://www.transifex.net/projects/p/anaconda/resource/master/ , the po file header contains:
# SOME DESCRIPTIVE TITLE. # Copyright (C) YEAR Red Hat, Inc. # This file is distributed under the same license as the PACKAGE package. # FIRST AUTHOR EMAIL@ADDRESS, YEAR. #
Whereas in https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/anaconda/c/f14-branch/view/po... the po file has five lines of copyright information, the oldest being from 1998.
In my opinion, losing the headers is a big problem, both from the copyright standpoint and from the "reputation" standpoint. Most people work on the translations for free and the having their name attached to the work they've done is one of the few rewards they get.
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
http://trac.transifex.org/ticket/675
-d
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Paul
On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Paul Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Yes -- if this copyright header exists in the POT file, it will also exist in all the PO files.
Additionally, an "AUTHORS" file can be placed in the po/ directory listing the copyright holders.
-d
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Paul -- trans mailing list trans@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 2:15 AM, Manuel Eduardo Ospina Sarmiento mospina@redhat.com wrote:
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
The solutions proposed so far are to add the existing copyright information in the POT file or in a separate TRANSLATORS file. The long-term solution would be to see someone with the itch to actually implement support for it [1].
Although it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve the copyright attribution process, please keep in mind that not all translators were indeed updating the headers so far (at least Tx wasn't doing this when you translated online).
A final note, potentially useful: past file editors could be taken from the VCS history directly.
-d
[1]: http://trac.transifex.org/ticket/675
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Paul
trans mailing list trans@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
On শুক্রবার 25 ফেব্রুয়ারি 2011 02:19 , Dimitris Glezos wrote:
A final note, potentially useful: past file editors could be taken from the VCS history directly.
Not all file editors had/have commit access to the VCS. I did not when I had started and commits were made by the team coordinator. This was in the 'elvis' era.
regards Runa
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 07:15:00PM -0500, Manuel Eduardo Ospina Sarmiento wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply or express whether we'd lose anything or not. I simply wanted to point out the copyright notice itself should *at least* say that Red Hat is not the only copyright owner. It would be ideal if translators were all listed. As I understand it that listing would not be terribly difficult to add as a feature. Is someone interested in doing that?
2011/2/25 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 07:15:00PM -0500, Manuel Eduardo Ospina Sarmiento wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply or express whether we'd lose anything or not. I simply wanted to point out the copyright notice itself should *at least* say that Red Hat is not the only copyright owner. It would be ideal if translators were all listed. As I understand it that listing would not be terribly difficult to add as a feature.
This has been discussed before [1] and [2], and it comes from 2006.
Let's talk about a long term solution for this, again.
It is useless to have comments that will be removed from the po file by the po compiler. They will not be present in the rpm package nor in the published document (using publican).
The copyright message may be solved with a LICENSE file in the whole project together with the source files in the source tree.
The translator history is another different story. It is used sometimes by translators (although mostly not used), and, if it is well implemented, it may serve for acknowledging translators for their work.
If I may choose here, I prefer a string like "translator-credits", which end up in the application like they do in gpk-application or system-config-printer, and the only translators shown are the ones for the current selected locale.
A po file editor like poEdit doesn't show the comments at the beginning of the po file, one would need to open the .po file with gedit to see them. However, all po file editor have a search tool, and a translator should only know what string to search for to see the translation history and modify it accordingly.
With a document managed with publican, there might be a string like that too, in a section like "<para>translator-credits</para>" in the xml file for a chapter, just like the Colophon chapter/section Paul once proposed [3]. I saw it is possible to implement. I will ask Guillermo Gomez (gomix) to implement it in the Software Management Guide, just for the proof of concept.
So, the copyright message in a comment in a source file can be solved with a LICENSE file in the source tree, the same way it is done with some Fedora packages where the license is missing in the source code.
The translator history clearly needs a solution outside Tx. It only needs developers and doc-writers care for the L10N people who will contribute translating their work.
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2009-April/msg00174.html
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue174#Document_Colophon
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2008-March/msg00132.html
kind regards
Domingo Becker (es)
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:56:05PM -0300, Domingo Becker wrote:
2011/2/25 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 07:15:00PM -0500, Manuel Eduardo Ospina Sarmiento wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply or express whether we'd lose anything or not. I simply wanted to point out the copyright notice itself should *at least* say that Red Hat is not the only copyright owner. It would be ideal if translators were all listed. As I understand it that listing would not be terribly difficult to add as a feature.
This has been discussed before [1] and [2], and it comes from 2006.
Let's talk about a long term solution for this, again.
It is useless to have comments that will be removed from the po file by the po compiler. They will not be present in the rpm package nor in the published document (using publican).
The copyright message may be solved with a LICENSE file in the whole project together with the source files in the source tree.
The translator history is another different story. It is used sometimes by translators (although mostly not used), and, if it is well implemented, it may serve for acknowledging translators for their work.
If I may choose here, I prefer a string like "translator-credits", which end up in the application like they do in gpk-application or system-config-printer, and the only translators shown are the ones for the current selected locale.
A po file editor like poEdit doesn't show the comments at the beginning of the po file, one would need to open the .po file with gedit to see them. However, all po file editor have a search tool, and a translator should only know what string to search for to see the translation history and modify it accordingly.
With a document managed with publican, there might be a string like that too, in a section like "<para>translator-credits</para>" in the xml file for a chapter, just like the Colophon chapter/section Paul once proposed [3]. I saw it is possible to implement. I will ask Guillermo Gomez (gomix) to implement it in the Software Management Guide, just for the proof of concept.
So, the copyright message in a comment in a source file can be solved with a LICENSE file in the source tree, the same way it is done with some Fedora packages where the license is missing in the source code.
The translator history clearly needs a solution outside Tx. It only needs developers and doc-writers care for the L10N people who will contribute translating their work.
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2009-April/msg00174.html
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue174#Document_Colophon
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2008-March/msg00132.html
I heard jsmith say on IRC earlier today, but didn't see him post here about it, so apologies if this is old news. DocBook lets you use:
<articleinfo> ... <othercredit role="translator">Domingo Becker</othercredit> ... </articleinfo>
I haven't used Publican in a while now and it's been through several revisions. Does anyone know how it treats these entries, off the top of their head?
I agree the hard work of translators should be recognized wherever possible!
2011/2/25 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:56:05PM -0300, Domingo Becker wrote:
2011/2/25 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 07:15:00PM -0500, Manuel Eduardo Ospina Sarmiento wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: > It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on #fedora-l10n > today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the copyright > headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply or express whether we'd lose anything or not. I simply wanted to point out the copyright notice itself should *at least* say that Red Hat is not the only copyright owner. It would be ideal if translators were all listed. As I understand it that listing would not be terribly difficult to add as a feature.
This has been discussed before [1] and [2], and it comes from 2006.
Let's talk about a long term solution for this, again.
It is useless to have comments that will be removed from the po file by the po compiler. They will not be present in the rpm package nor in the published document (using publican).
The copyright message may be solved with a LICENSE file in the whole project together with the source files in the source tree.
The translator history is another different story. It is used sometimes by translators (although mostly not used), and, if it is well implemented, it may serve for acknowledging translators for their work.
If I may choose here, I prefer a string like "translator-credits", which end up in the application like they do in gpk-application or system-config-printer, and the only translators shown are the ones for the current selected locale.
A po file editor like poEdit doesn't show the comments at the beginning of the po file, one would need to open the .po file with gedit to see them. However, all po file editor have a search tool, and a translator should only know what string to search for to see the translation history and modify it accordingly.
With a document managed with publican, there might be a string like that too, in a section like "<para>translator-credits</para>" in the xml file for a chapter, just like the Colophon chapter/section Paul once proposed [3]. I saw it is possible to implement. I will ask Guillermo Gomez (gomix) to implement it in the Software Management Guide, just for the proof of concept.
So, the copyright message in a comment in a source file can be solved with a LICENSE file in the source tree, the same way it is done with some Fedora packages where the license is missing in the source code.
The translator history clearly needs a solution outside Tx. It only needs developers and doc-writers care for the L10N people who will contribute translating their work.
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2009-April/msg00174.html
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue174#Document_Colophon
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2008-March/msg00132.html
I heard jsmith say on IRC earlier today, but didn't see him post here about it, so apologies if this is old news. DocBook lets you use:
<articleinfo> ... <othercredit role="translator">Domingo Becker</othercredit> ... </articleinfo>
I haven't used Publican in a while now and it's been through several revisions. Does anyone know how it treats these entries, off the top of their head?
I've been talking about this with Guillermo Gomez, and it's under testing.
The tracking ticket is at
http://rpmdev.proyectofedora.org/issues/488
I agree the hard work of translators should be recognized wherever possible!
Thank you, Paul!
I'll let you know if what I propose for publican docs works fine.
It would be only one simple way to manage this either if it is software or a publican document.
kind regards
Domingo Becker (es)
Can a technical person with lovelock checked out grep through po files in all the langs in all the packages and assess how many people and how far back in time this change will impact? that should give us some scope and make a call whether it is convention or procedure.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com To: trans@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 6:09:24 AM Subject: Re: Transifex.net migration may lead to loss of our copyright headers On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 01:56:05PM -0300, Domingo Becker wrote:
2011/2/25 Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com:
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 07:15:00PM -0500, Manuel Eduardo Ospina Sarmiento wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dimitris Glezos glezos@indifex.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ville-Pekka Vainio vpivaini@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: > It was brought to our attention by a Mageia translator on > #fedora-l10n > today, that the new version of Transifex does not leave the > copyright > headers in po files intact.
FYI -- We are tracking the issue on this ticket (vpv already added some useful comments on it):
Since that ticket is more generally about the treatment of comments, I didn't add this issue there, but for Fedora translations, are we able to ensure the copyright notice reads at a minimum, "Copyright (C) <year> Red Hat, Inc. and others"?
Is this enough? will we lose the name of the translators that have worked since 1998 and put "others" instead?
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply or express whether we'd lose anything or not. I simply wanted to point out the copyright notice itself should *at least* say that Red Hat is not the only copyright owner. It would be ideal if translators were all listed. As I understand it that listing would not be terribly difficult to add as a feature.
This has been discussed before [1] and [2], and it comes from 2006.
Let's talk about a long term solution for this, again.
It is useless to have comments that will be removed from the po file by the po compiler. They will not be present in the rpm package nor in the published document (using publican).
The copyright message may be solved with a LICENSE file in the whole project together with the source files in the source tree.
The translator history is another different story. It is used sometimes by translators (although mostly not used), and, if it is well implemented, it may serve for acknowledging translators for their work.
If I may choose here, I prefer a string like "translator-credits", which end up in the application like they do in gpk-application or system-config-printer, and the only translators shown are the ones for the current selected locale.
A po file editor like poEdit doesn't show the comments at the beginning of the po file, one would need to open the .po file with gedit to see them. However, all po file editor have a search tool, and a translator should only know what string to search for to see the translation history and modify it accordingly.
With a document managed with publican, there might be a string like that too, in a section like "<para>translator-credits</para>" in the xml file for a chapter, just like the Colophon chapter/section Paul once proposed [3]. I saw it is possible to implement. I will ask Guillermo Gomez (gomix) to implement it in the Software Management Guide, just for the proof of concept.
So, the copyright message in a comment in a source file can be solved with a LICENSE file in the source tree, the same way it is done with some Fedora packages where the license is missing in the source code.
The translator history clearly needs a solution outside Tx. It only needs developers and doc-writers care for the L10N people who will contribute translating their work.
[1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2009-April/msg00174.html
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/Issue174#Document_Colophon
[3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2008-March/msg00132.html
I heard jsmith say on IRC earlier today, but didn't see him post here about it, so apologies if this is old news. DocBook lets you use:
<articleinfo> ... <othercredit role="translator">Domingo Becker</othercredit> ... </articleinfo>
I haven't used Publican in a while now and it's been through several revisions. Does anyone know how it treats these entries, off the top of their head?
I agree the hard work of translators should be recognized wherever possible!
-- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com -- trans mailing list trans@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
2011/2/25 Michael Hideo-Smith mhideo@redhat.com:
Can a technical person with lovelock checked out grep through po files in all the langs in all the packages and assess how many people and how far back in time this change will impact? that should give us some scope and make a call whether it is convention or procedure.
No need to go back in time, so no impact.
If we agree with the procedure to use, let's do it from now on for all the software and docs available for translation.
I may call by mail all Spanish translators who have ever worked before and tell them "hey, listen, we are improving things, now we can acknowledge your work. Come back to our team, continue contributing translations and add your name here in that string." Of course, a minimum amount of translation work would be needed to add a name.
k.r.
Domingo Becker (es)
On 02/26/2011 09:44 AM, Domingo Becker wrote:
2011/2/25 Michael Hideo-Smithmhideo@redhat.com:
Can a technical person with lovelock checked out grep through po files in all the langs in all the packages and assess how many people and how far back in time this change will impact? that should give us some scope and make a call whether it is convention or procedure.
My apologies, Domingo. I did not adhere to protocol.
I posit that the removal en-mass of copyright notices with translator dates and names, on the po files, will have an impact on the community. I posit this as an experienced stakeholder of this project since my involvement in 2002.
Therefore, I request a motion to the Fedora Localization Steering Committee that it undertake an assessment of the number of translators affected by this change and the breadth of alteration of history.
I gently remind the steering committee that one of the roles of governance is the verification of performance over time.
What is the chair's counsel?
- Mike
No need to go back in time, so no impact.
If we agree with the procedure to use, let's do it from now on for all the software and docs available for translation.
I may call by mail all Spanish translators who have ever worked before and tell them "hey, listen, we are improving things, now we can acknowledge your work. Come back to our team, continue contributing translations and add your name here in that string." Of course, a minimum amount of translation work would be needed to add a name.
k.r.
Domingo Becker (es)
-
Dimitris Glezos -
Domingo Becker -
Manuel Ospina -
Michael Hideo Smith -
Paul W. Frields -
Runa Bhattacharjee -
Ville-Pekka Vainio