As I dug into John Poelstra's schedule in more detail, I noticed a few issues that I hadn't noticed in earlier reviews. Specifically, very long times on some short tasks with short times on some more difficult tasks, and tasks out of order.
Since I don't have a really good feel for the guides, I put together what I thought was a more workable schedule for release notes only. Eric was going to look at guides. My strawman is at:
http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F12RN2a.html
I fixed major milestones to the same dates that John had so hopefully we don't affect other teams. However, I did put a couple of L10N tasks on the list since they are tied closely to us. I have not, however, had any discussion with L10N as to whether these times make any sense at all to them.
John suggested we get together in a Gobby/Talk meeting to get this schedule into sync with his. I think we need to get the guides schedule integrated with this and include a representative from L10N in that meeting.
Because of the new definition of alpha and beta, our schedule looks a lot different than earlier releases. Specifically, since alpha should be "feature complete", we should have almost everything we need for release notes by alpha. That means the bulk of our work is between alpha and beta. However, since Beta should include more or less complete release notes, L10N will need time to translate them. That pushes Docs work forward some, meaning we will have a real scramble right around alpha, and L10N will have a pile of work just before beta. The upside is that the work before GA should be a little less onerous, and there should be little left to translate.
If we can make our plan of a table for all changes and prose only for significant effort required to convert plus highlighting high-profile features, there should be a lot less prose to write (and translate) than previous releases. We will, however, need some pretty aggressive wiki gardening to allow us to convert to XML quickly.
I would like everyone to take a really close look at this, and comment on it on this list. I think I have the major tasks identified, but it is always good to have more input.
Thanks --McD
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 08:32:32AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
As I dug into John Poelstra's schedule in more detail, I noticed a few issues that I hadn't noticed in earlier reviews. Specifically, very long times on some short tasks with short times on some more difficult tasks, and tasks out of order.
Since I don't have a really good feel for the guides, I put together what I thought was a more workable schedule for release notes only. Eric was going to look at guides. My strawman is at:
http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F12RN2a.html
I fixed major milestones to the same dates that John had so hopefully we don't affect other teams. However, I did put a couple of L10N tasks on the list since they are tied closely to us. I have not, however, had any discussion with L10N as to whether these times make any sense at all to them.
John suggested we get together in a Gobby/Talk meeting to get this schedule into sync with his. I think we need to get the guides schedule integrated with this and include a representative from L10N in that meeting.
Because of the new definition of alpha and beta, our schedule looks a lot different than earlier releases. Specifically, since alpha should be "feature complete", we should have almost everything we need for release notes by alpha. That means the bulk of our work is between alpha and beta. However, since Beta should include more or less complete release notes, L10N will need time to translate them. That pushes Docs work forward some, meaning we will have a real scramble right around alpha, and L10N will have a pile of work just before beta. The upside is that the work before GA should be a little less onerous, and there should be little left to translate.
If we can make our plan of a table for all changes and prose only for significant effort required to convert plus highlighting high-profile features, there should be a lot less prose to write (and translate) than previous releases. We will, however, need some pretty aggressive wiki gardening to allow us to convert to XML quickly.
I would like everyone to take a really close look at this, and comment on it on this list. I think I have the major tasks identified, but it is always good to have more input.
Hi John,
Can you explain what the "Review f-r-n.html" tasks are for? I noticed that these take several days to a week and that L10n doesn't get the content until after that happens. Is this something that could be combined with the XML conversion so that L10n could have a longer time available to translate content?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com To: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com; fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
Can you explain what the "Review f-r-n.html" tasks are for? I noticed that these take several days to a week and that L10n doesn't get the content until after that happens. Is this something that could be combined with the XML conversion so that L10n could have a longer time available to translate content?
If we do a really good job of wiki grooming, we shouldn't even need that, but it seems like we always discover a bunch of problems at the last minute. I was hoping to avoid the last-minute changes that frustrate the translators so.
HOWEVER, Sparks just informed me that I have the GA date wrong, so I need to go re-work that schedule. Don't know whether I was looking at the wrong schedule or just fat-fingered it, but it looks like we have an additional month.
--McD
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 10:12:42AM -0400, John J. McDonough wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com To: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com; fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
Can you explain what the "Review f-r-n.html" tasks are for? I noticed that these take several days to a week and that L10n doesn't get the content until after that happens. Is this something that could be combined with the XML conversion so that L10n could have a longer time available to translate content?
If we do a really good job of wiki grooming, we shouldn't even need that, but it seems like we always discover a bunch of problems at the last minute. I was hoping to avoid the last-minute changes that frustrate the translators so.
HOWEVER, Sparks just informed me that I have the GA date wrong, so I need to go re-work that schedule. Don't know whether I was looking at the wrong schedule or just fat-fingered it, but it looks like we have an additional month.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Schedule
FWIW, that's the overall calendar, but John's more detailed schedules are here:
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/
(This info provided mainly to benefit those who might not know where to find these already.)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul W. Frields" stickster@gmail.com To: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com; fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:39 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Schedule
FWIW, that's the overall calendar, but John's more detailed schedules are here:
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/
(This info provided mainly to benefit those who might not know where to find these already.)
Updated strawman at http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F12RN4a.html
I believe this is consistent with http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-tasks.html as far as major milestones go, but f-12-docs-tasks does have a number of issues which this is intended to correct. Again, please go through this, see whether it makes sense. I left the reviews in there, but by eliminating them we could give L10N a little more time, at the possible cost of having more updates later.
This schedule does anticipate that the bulk of the release notes effort will be completed for beta, and the general availability release notes will simply be updates to reflect issues uncovered during beta. It remains to be seen how disciplined we can be about "feature complete".
--McD
Updated strawman at http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/F12RN4a.html
I believe this is consistent with http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-docs-tasks.html as far as major milestones go, but f-12-docs-tasks does have a number of issues which this is intended to correct. Again, please go through this, see whether it makes sense. I left the reviews in there, but by eliminating them we could give L10N a little more time, at the possible cost of having more updates later.
This schedule does anticipate that the bulk of the release notes effort will be completed for beta, and the general availability release notes will simply be updates to reflect issues uncovered during beta. It remains to be seen how disciplined we can be about "feature complete".
Hello, I am noriko from FLP. Thank you for offering us to review rel-note schedule. I've gone through translation related entries. * 4.7 Translate f-r-n for beta Sep 6 to Sep 26 21d This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Sep 9 to Sep 18.
* 4.8 Build f-r-n.rpm for beta Sep 29 A question, there is 2 days blank between 4.7 and 4.8. What is this for?
* 6.7 Translate f-r-n for GA Oct 20 to Oct 26 7d This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Oct 9 to Oct 16.
* Review translation not scheduled Please set up 'Review translation'. Since we translate PO file, so it is extremely helpful if docs team can build html for review before the deadline.
* 7.4 Translate 0-day I understand that docs team has little window for Zero Day Update. But let me become devil this time as experiment. Is any chance that rel-note team can place this entry before GA Public Availability 3-Nov for inclusion? Just tiny window is fine. I can not guarantee at all how many translators can respond.
That is all from me. noriko
Noriko
Thank you so much for your careful review
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noriko Mizumoto" noriko@redhat.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Cc: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
- 4.7 Translate f-r-n for beta Sep 6 to Sep 26 21d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Sep 9 to Sep 18.
While I stuck with John's dates for the releases, I tried to maximize the time L10N had available. I wonder whether 9 days is sufficient. I would expect this cycle that the beta would be the bulk of the release notes (although I suppose that remains to be seen).
- 4.8 Build f-r-n.rpm for beta Sep 29
A question, there is 2 days blank between 4.7 and 4.8. What is this for?
No good reason
- 6.7 Translate f-r-n for GA Oct 20 to Oct 26 7d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Oct 9 to Oct 16.
The later we can do this the better. Release notes seem to be the last thing on people's radar, and we tend to discover important changes late, so the later we can make the POTs the better. Also, the original schedule had some Docs tasks out of order.
- Review translation not scheduled
Please set up 'Review translation'. Since we translate PO file, so it is extremely helpful if docs team can build html for review before the deadline.
That is a really excellent catch. I think we need to work on the mechanics of this, but it could have a number of advantages.
- 7.4 Translate 0-day
I understand that docs team has little window for Zero Day Update. But let me become devil this time as experiment. Is any chance that rel-note team can place this entry before GA Public Availability 3-Nov for inclusion? Just tiny window is fine. I can not guarantee at all how many translators can respond.
My expectation was that on release day the 0-day changes would be available in English only, with an update rpm to follow the release. However, we are still discussing whether it makes sense to have a single rpm with six documents in 41 languages, so that may change. It might make more sense to delay the availability of the update rpm rather than try to push the POT creation earlier, thus missing late breaking changes. On the other end, we are going to try to be more proactive in hounding the developers for release notes input, so maybe we can reduce the number of those late changes.
--McD
John J. McDonough said the following on 07/28/2009 04:37 AM Pacific Time:
Noriko
Thank you so much for your careful review
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noriko Mizumoto" noriko@redhat.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Cc: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
- 4.7 Translate f-r-n for beta Sep 6 to Sep 26 21d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Sep 9 to Sep 18.
While I stuck with John's dates for the releases, I tried to maximize the time L10N had available. I wonder whether 9 days is sufficient. I would expect this cycle that the beta would be the bulk of the release notes (although I suppose that remains to be seen).
- 4.8 Build f-r-n.rpm for beta Sep 29
A question, there is 2 days blank between 4.7 and 4.8. What is this for?
No good reason
- 6.7 Translate f-r-n for GA Oct 20 to Oct 26 7d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Oct 9 to Oct 16.
The later we can do this the better. Release notes seem to be the last thing on people's radar, and we tend to discover important changes late, so the later we can make the POTs the better. Also, the original schedule had some Docs tasks out of order.
- Review translation not scheduled
Please set up 'Review translation'. Since we translate PO file, so it is extremely helpful if docs team can build html for review before the deadline.
That is a really excellent catch. I think we need to work on the mechanics of this, but it could have a number of advantages.
- 7.4 Translate 0-day
I understand that docs team has little window for Zero Day Update. But let me become devil this time as experiment. Is any chance that rel-note team can place this entry before GA Public Availability 3-Nov for inclusion? Just tiny window is fine. I can not guarantee at all how many translators can respond.
My expectation was that on release day the 0-day changes would be available in English only, with an update rpm to follow the release. However, we are still discussing whether it makes sense to have a single rpm with six documents in 41 languages, so that may change. It might make more sense to delay the availability of the update rpm rather than try to push the POT creation earlier, thus missing late breaking changes. On the other end, we are going to try to be more proactive in hounding the developers for release notes input, so maybe we can reduce the number of those late changes.
--McD
This is a great discussion and it is really exciting to see different people asking the hard questions and looking for the holes that I used to try and do all on my own :)
Unfortunately I've found that it is extremely hard (as you may be seeing already) to create a really solid schedule over email, particularly when more than one team is involved and questions have been raised in response to tasks or dates someone has previously suggested.
I would like to propose that we meet on Gobby & FedoraTalk next. So far I have met with: Design, Release Engineering, Quality, and Marketing to go over the Fedora 12 schedule this way. I think everyone who attended those meetings would say they were tremendously efficient and helpful :-)
Could someone set up a meeting time and date using www.whenisgood.net? I promise to add my availability and create a text version of the existing schedule that we can then hack through and update together on Gobby. It helps if I am there so I can capture the dependencies between the tasks and embed them in the TaskJuggler source file.
Thanks, John
John Poelstra さんは書きました:
John J. McDonough said the following on 07/28/2009 04:37 AM Pacific Time:
Noriko
Thank you so much for your careful review
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noriko Mizumoto" noriko@redhat.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Cc: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
- 4.7 Translate f-r-n for beta Sep 6 to Sep 26 21d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Sep 9 to Sep 18.
While I stuck with John's dates for the releases, I tried to maximize the time L10N had available. I wonder whether 9 days is sufficient. I would expect this cycle that the beta would be the bulk of the release notes (although I suppose that remains to be seen).
- 4.8 Build f-r-n.rpm for beta Sep 29
A question, there is 2 days blank between 4.7 and 4.8. What is this for?
No good reason
- 6.7 Translate f-r-n for GA Oct 20 to Oct 26 7d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Oct 9 to Oct 16.
The later we can do this the better. Release notes seem to be the last thing on people's radar, and we tend to discover important changes late, so the later we can make the POTs the better. Also, the original schedule had some Docs tasks out of order.
- Review translation not scheduled
Please set up 'Review translation'. Since we translate PO file, so it is extremely helpful if docs team can build html for review before the deadline.
That is a really excellent catch. I think we need to work on the mechanics of this, but it could have a number of advantages.
- 7.4 Translate 0-day
I understand that docs team has little window for Zero Day Update. But let me become devil this time as experiment. Is any chance that rel-note team can place this entry before GA Public Availability 3-Nov for inclusion? Just tiny window is fine. I can not guarantee at all how many translators can respond.
My expectation was that on release day the 0-day changes would be available in English only, with an update rpm to follow the release. However, we are still discussing whether it makes sense to have a single rpm with six documents in 41 languages, so that may change. It might make more sense to delay the availability of the update rpm rather than try to push the POT creation earlier, thus missing late breaking changes. On the other end, we are going to try to be more proactive in hounding the developers for release notes input, so maybe we can reduce the number of those late changes.
--McD
This is a great discussion and it is really exciting to see different people asking the hard questions and looking for the holes that I used to try and do all on my own :)
Unfortunately I've found that it is extremely hard (as you may be seeing already) to create a really solid schedule over email, particularly when more than one team is involved and questions have been raised in response to tasks or dates someone has previously suggested.
I would like to propose that we meet on Gobby & FedoraTalk next. So far I have met with: Design, Release Engineering, Quality, and Marketing to go over the Fedora 12 schedule this way. I think everyone who attended those meetings would say they were tremendously efficient and helpful :-)
I am not good at those at all, but will try. Btw, irc is better option for me ;p noriko
Could someone set up a meeting time and date using www.whenisgood.net? I promise to add my availability and create a text version of the existing schedule that we can then hack through and update together on Gobby. It helps if I am there so I can capture the dependencies between the tasks and embed them in the TaskJuggler source file.
Thanks, John
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noriko Mizumoto" noriko@redhat.com To: "For participants of the Documentation Project" fedora-docs-list@redhat.com Cc: "Fedora Translation Project List" fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
John Poelstra さんは書きました:
John J. McDonough said the following on 07/28/2009 04:37 AM Pacific Time:
Noriko
Thank you so much for your careful review
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noriko Mizumoto" noriko@redhat.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Cc: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
- 4.7 Translate f-r-n for beta Sep 6 to Sep 26 21d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Sep 9 to Sep 18.
While I stuck with John's dates for the releases, I tried to maximize the time L10N had available. I wonder whether 9 days is sufficient. I would expect this cycle that the beta would be the bulk of the release notes (although I suppose that remains to be seen).
- 4.8 Build f-r-n.rpm for beta Sep 29
A question, there is 2 days blank between 4.7 and 4.8. What is this for?
No good reason
- 6.7 Translate f-r-n for GA Oct 20 to Oct 26 7d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Oct 9 to Oct 16.
The later we can do this the better. Release notes seem to be the last thing on people's radar, and we tend to discover important changes late, so the later we can make the POTs the better. Also, the original schedule had some Docs tasks out of order.
- Review translation not scheduled
Please set up 'Review translation'. Since we translate PO file, so it is extremely helpful if docs team can build html for review before the deadline.
That is a really excellent catch. I think we need to work on the mechanics of this, but it could have a number of advantages.
- 7.4 Translate 0-day
I understand that docs team has little window for Zero Day Update. But let me become devil this time as experiment. Is any chance that rel-note team can place this entry before GA Public Availability 3-Nov for inclusion? Just tiny window is fine. I can not guarantee at all how many translators can respond.
My expectation was that on release day the 0-day changes would be available in English only, with an update rpm to follow the release. However, we are still discussing whether it makes sense to have a single rpm with six documents in 41 languages, so that may change. It might make more sense to delay the availability of the update rpm rather than try to push the POT creation earlier, thus missing late breaking changes. On the other end, we are going to try to be more proactive in hounding the developers for release notes input, so maybe we can reduce the number of those late changes.
--McD
This is a great discussion and it is really exciting to see different people asking the hard questions and looking for the holes that I used to try and do all on my own :)
Unfortunately I've found that it is extremely hard (as you may be seeing already) to create a really solid schedule over email, particularly when more than one team is involved and questions have been raised in response to tasks or dates someone has previously suggested.
I would like to propose that we meet on Gobby & FedoraTalk next. So far I have met with: Design, Release Engineering, Quality, and Marketing to go over the Fedora 12 schedule this way. I think everyone who attended those meetings would say they were tremendously efficient and helpful :-)
I am not good at those at all, but will try. Btw, irc is better option for me ;p noriko
Could someone set up a meeting time and date using www.whenisgood.net? I promise to add my availability and create a text version of the existing schedule that we can then hack through and update together on Gobby. It helps if I am there so I can capture the dependencies between the tasks and embed them in the TaskJuggler source file.
Thanks, John
I think John has the right idea here, but I'm not sure I know who all the players need to be.
--McD
John J. McDonough さんは書きました:
Noriko
Thank you so much for your careful review
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noriko Mizumoto" noriko@redhat.com To: "Fedora Translation Project List" fedora-trans-list@redhat.com Cc: fedora-docs-list@redhat.com Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:31 AM Subject: Re: Release Notes Schedule
- 4.7 Translate f-r-n for beta Sep 6 to Sep 26 21d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Sep 9 to Sep 18.
While I stuck with John's dates for the releases, I tried to maximize the time L10N had available. I wonder whether 9 days is sufficient. I would expect this cycle that the beta would be the bulk of the release notes (although I suppose that remains to be seen).
You are so sweet! It is glad to know that it's not typo but it will be happening with 21d than 9d. Thank you!
- 4.8 Build f-r-n.rpm for beta Sep 29
A question, there is 2 days blank between 4.7 and 4.8. What is this for?
No good reason
- 6.7 Translate f-r-n for GA Oct 20 to Oct 26 7d
This seems not consistent with f-12-trans-tasks, which says Oct 9 to Oct 16.
The later we can do this the better. Release notes seem to be the last thing on people's radar, and we tend to discover important changes late, so the later we can make the POTs the better. Also, the original schedule had some Docs tasks out of order.
Understood.
- Review translation not scheduled
Please set up 'Review translation'. Since we translate PO file, so it is extremely helpful if docs team can build html for review before the deadline.
That is a really excellent catch. I think we need to work on the mechanics of this, but it could have a number of advantages.
- 7.4 Translate 0-day
I understand that docs team has little window for Zero Day Update. But let me become devil this time as experiment. Is any chance that rel-note team can place this entry before GA Public Availability 3-Nov for inclusion? Just tiny window is fine. I can not guarantee at all how many translators can respond.
My expectation was that on release day the 0-day changes would be available in English only, with an update rpm to follow the release. However, we are still discussing whether it makes sense to have a single rpm with six documents in 41 languages, so that may change. It might make more sense to delay the availability of the update rpm rather than try to push the POT creation earlier, thus missing late breaking changes. On the other end, we are going to try to be more proactive in hounding the developers for release notes input, so maybe we can reduce the number of those late changes.
Understood the situation. Let's see how it goes.
Thank you again. noriko