Hello all!
For several years, installing Cockpit's web server (cockpit-ws.rpm) has inserted itself into /etc/motd.d/ and /etc/issue.d, to show either
Activate the web console with: systemctl enable --now cockpit.socket
or
Web console: https://<address>...
depending on whether cockpit.socket is running or not.
We've also had several users complain about that [1]. I feel it's time to finally do something about that.
The original reasons for introducing these messages predate me, but I suppose back then Cockpit was "new" and "important" (especially for RHEL) and needed some more advertising. But I agree with the "clutter" and "does not scale" points in that bugzilla.
My preference would be to keep the /etc/issue.d snippet, so that you can see it in the console (also for VMs). But drop the motd one -- when I ssh into a machine, I don't need to be told about Cockpit, and it's also a bit too annoying.
Any objections, opinions, guidance?
Thank you!
Martin
Hello!
I'd be fine with taking out the motd and keeping the issue snippet. I learned about Cockpit from the MOTD message when it was included in RHEL 8. It's a cool feature, but not one that I use extensively. I remember thinking at the time that the motd entry seemed like a rather aggressive method of getting my attention.
Thanks,
Paul
On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 2:53 PM Martin Pitt via server server@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello all!
For several years, installing Cockpit's web server (cockpit-ws.rpm) has inserted itself into /etc/motd.d/ and /etc/issue.d, to show either
Activate the web console with: systemctl enable --now cockpit.socket
or
Web console: https://<address>...
depending on whether cockpit.socket is running or not.
We've also had several users complain about that [1]. I feel it's time to finally do something about that.
The original reasons for introducing these messages predate me, but I suppose back then Cockpit was "new" and "important" (especially for RHEL) and needed some more advertising. But I agree with the "clutter" and "does not scale" points in that bugzilla.
My preference would be to keep the /etc/issue.d snippet, so that you can see it in the console (also for VMs). But drop the motd one -- when I ssh into a machine, I don't need to be told about Cockpit, and it's also a bit too annoying.
Any objections, opinions, guidance?
Thank you!
Martin
[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1635200
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Hi,
Am 09.12.2024 um 15:53 schrieb Martin Pitt via server server@lists.fedoraproject.org:
Hello all!
For several years, installing Cockpit's web server (cockpit-ws.rpm) has inserted itself into /etc/motd.d/ and /etc/issue.d, to show either
Activate the web console with: systemctl enable --now cockpit.socket
or
Web console: https://<address>...
depending on whether cockpit.socket is running or not.
We've also had several users complain about that [1]. I feel it's time to finally do something about that.
The original reasons for introducing these messages predate me, but I suppose back then Cockpit was "new" and "important" (especially for RHEL) and needed some more advertising. But I agree with the "clutter" and "does not scale" points in that bugzilla.
My preference would be to keep the /etc/issue.d snippet, so that you can see it in the console (also for VMs). But drop the motd one -- when I ssh into a machine, I don't need to be told about Cockpit, and it's also a bit too annoying.
Any objections, opinions, guidance?
Thank you!
Martin
I think the importance (or unimportance) of the message is the same, whether native on hardware or in a VM. And even if Cockpit is no longer new, it is still important. In the Server documentation, we assume that Cockpit is available as a matter of fact.
In this respect, the short one-liner when logging in is perfectly fine in my opinion. And it is a helpful reminder, especially for new users who often miss a graphical user interface.
If a system administrator wants to remove the hint, it is easy to change the configuration in /etc. We can include this as information in the Server documentation.
We may discuss this at our meeting on Wednesday.
--
Peter Boy https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pboy PBoy@fedoraproject.org
Timezone: CET (UTC+1) / CEST (UTC+2)
Fedora Server Edition Working Group member Fedora Docs team contributor and board member Java developer and enthusiast
Hello Peter and all,
Peter Boy Uni via server [2024-12-09 17:52 +0100]:
In this respect, the short one-liner when logging in is perfectly fine in my opinion. And it is a helpful reminder, especially for new users who often miss a graphical user interface.
Thanks, noted.
If a system administrator wants to remove the hint, it is easy to change the configuration in /etc. We can include this as information in the Server documentation.
For the record, this is supported (and CI-tested). Admins can remove /etc/motd.d/cockpit or /etc/issue.d/cockpit.issue to disable the message, and package upgrades respect that.
Martin
I understand the frustration expressed in the bugzilla traffic, but ultimately the message is not 'in the way'. My work systems display the full DoD login banner when we SSH or console in. That message is visually intrusive, but those of us who work in that environment have already mentally filtered out that wall of text.
Stephen's remarks from the homelab point of view make complete sense. I hadn't considered the utility of having the address printed out because I "pre-bake" a few things like DHCP reservations and DNS entries when I'm planning out new VMs in my homelab setup, but not everyone does it that way. (And that's OK!)
Combined with Martin's statement about being able to disable the message ourselves after the fact, it may make more sense to just let it be. If anything, you are obligated to see that message once, assuming you log into the machine directly before a post-install automation disables it before you ever log in.
On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 5:34 PM Martin Pitt via server server@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Peter and all,
Peter Boy Uni via server [2024-12-09 17:52 +0100]:
In this respect, the short one-liner when logging in is perfectly fine in my opinion. And it is a helpful reminder, especially for new users who often miss a graphical user interface.
Thanks, noted.
If a system administrator wants to remove the hint, it is easy to change the configuration in /etc. We can include this as information in the Server documentation.
For the record, this is supported (and CI-tested). Admins can remove /etc/motd.d/cockpit or /etc/issue.d/cockpit.issue to disable the message, and package upgrades respect that.
Martin
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On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 12:34 PM Martin Pitt via server server@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Peter and all,
Peter Boy Uni via server [2024-12-09 17:52 +0100]:
In this respect, the short one-liner when logging in is perfectly fine in my opinion. And it is a helpful reminder, especially for new users who often miss a graphical user interface.
Thanks, noted.
If a system administrator wants to remove the hint, it is easy to change the configuration in /etc. We can include this as information in the Server documentation.
For the record, this is supported (and CI-tested). Admins can remove /etc/motd.d/cockpit or /etc/issue.d/cockpit.issue to disable the message, and package upgrades respect that.
Honestly, I'd prefer we keep it, and just subpackage it out so people who want it gone can just uninstall the packages for the snippets.
It's very useful for many newbie server folks, which is most of the audience for Fedora Server. And as mentioned upthread, homelabbers who are learning about things tend to appreciate these reminders.
Also in practice, server environments rarely have physical login, so the motd notice is valuable whereas the issue one is less so.
On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 1:36 PM Neal Gompa via server server@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 12:34 PM Martin Pitt via server server@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Hello Peter and all,
Peter Boy Uni via server [2024-12-09 17:52 +0100]:
In this respect, the short one-liner when logging in is perfectly fine in my opinion. And it is a helpful reminder, especially for new users who often miss a graphical user interface.
Thanks, noted.
If a system administrator wants to remove the hint, it is easy to change the configuration in /etc. We can include this as information in the Server documentation.
For the record, this is supported (and CI-tested). Admins can remove /etc/motd.d/cockpit or /etc/issue.d/cockpit.issue to disable the message, and package upgrades respect that.
Honestly, I'd prefer we keep it, and just subpackage it out so people who want it gone can just uninstall the packages for the snippets.
It's very useful for many newbie server folks, which is most of the audience for Fedora Server. And as mentioned upthread, homelabbers who are learning about things tend to appreciate these reminders.
Also in practice, server environments rarely have physical login, so the motd notice is valuable whereas the issue one is less so.
I was in the process of writing a response that reads almost exactly the same as what Neal said, so I'll just leave a +1 here. I agree with all of this.
Hello all,
Neal Gompa [2024-12-09 13:35 -0500]:
Honestly, I'd prefer we keep it, and just subpackage it out so people who want it gone can just uninstall the packages for the snippets.
To be honest, I don't like that. I introduces a lot of new complexity and combinatorial explosion of both code (we'd *still* have to handle removing the config symlinks as well, after all), tests, and documentation, and is also an unnecessary extra footprint in rpm/dnf etc (not even mentioning the transition of config files to a new package on upgrade). It would have to be installed by default, so to remove it it is not harder to remove or /dev/null a symlink than finding and uninstalling a package.
So far the responses mostly favor just keeping it. I'm surprised, but that is fine 😀 Thanks everyone!
Martin
I'm coming at this from a home lab view point, and I believe there is great value in keeping the messages, especially the one that gives the IP address.
In a home lab environment, you often when setting up a new Fedora Server have your router handing out a random IP address to the box. Having this message makes it easier to complete your post install setup tasks after the first boot, because you see on the terminal screen right away how you can connect remotely to the server from perhaps your main workstation on your network.
This gives me one less reason to log into my router and look through the DHCP leases and figure out what IP address it has received. Depending on the router's interface, how many fedora boxes you already have on the network, and other factors it is not always easy to see in the router interface what IP was given to the new server on the network.
I appreciate seeing that message after first boot when I still have a monitor attached to the new box that I have just installed Fedora Server on. I also appreciate this since by default we have turned off GUI interface on Fedora Server, so I don't have the GUI tools to do some post install configuration, but I do have Cockpit that is up and running and ready to use from any of the workstations on my network. I even appreciate the fact that the message correctly formats the IP address and Port number for me so I don't mess up the typing into the browser. When you don't do IT for a living, and you don't spend all day every day remoting into your servers these little messages are helpful and appreciated.
I'm in favor of keeping them for those who home lab with Fedora Server.
--------- mowest --------- discoverfoss.com
On Monday, December 9, 2024 9:53:31 AM (-05:00), Martin Pitt via server wrote:
Hello all!
For several years, installing Cockpit's web server (cockpit-ws.rpm) has inserted itself into /etc/motd.d/ and /etc/issue.d, to show either
Activate the web console with: systemctl enable --now cockpit.socket
or
Web console: https://<address>...
depending on whether cockpit.socket is running or not.
We've also had several users complain about that [1]. I feel it's time
to
finally do something about that.
The original reasons for introducing these messages predate me, but I
suppose
back then Cockpit was "new" and "important" (especially for RHEL) and
needed
some more advertising. But I agree with the "clutter" and "does not
scale"
points in that bugzilla.
My preference would be to keep the /etc/issue.d snippet, so that you can
see it
in the console (also for VMs). But drop the motd one -- when I ssh into
a
machine, I don't need to be told about Cockpit, and it's also a bit too annoying.
Any objections, opinions, guidance?
Thank you!
Martin
Hello Stephen,
thanks for your thoughts!
Stephen Daley via server [2024-12-09 17:07 +0000]:
In a home lab environment, you often when setting up a new Fedora Server have your router handing out a random IP address to the box. Having this message makes it easier to complete your post install setup tasks after the first boot, because you see on the terminal screen right away how you can connect remotely to the server from perhaps your main workstation on your network.
Hmm, you mean from a serial console? I.e. "issue"? Because if you see it in ssh (that's "motd"), you obviously already figured out its name or address, and don't need to be told again.
I appreciate seeing that message after first boot when I still have a monitor attached to the new box that I have just installed Fedora Server on.
Yes, that is the "issue" instance of the message, which I'd like to keep as well for the same reason.
I also appreciate this since by default we have turned off GUI interface on Fedora Server, so I don't have the GUI tools to do some post install configuration, but I do have Cockpit that is up and running and ready to use from any of the workstations on my network. I even appreciate the fact that the message correctly formats the IP address and Port number for me so I don't mess up the typing into the browser. When you don't do IT for a living, and you don't spend all day every day remoting into your servers these little messages are helpful and appreciated.
Note that there's also the option to only keep the running message (with the address), but not the "disabled" message ("Activate web console with systemctl --enable ..").
Thanks,
Martin
server@lists.fedoraproject.org