Hi folks,
There's a thread on Discussion[1] about Magazine articles that are out of date (e.g. due to orphaned packages). I know it can't really be done automatically, but do we have a process for marking outdated articles in a way that's obvious to readers? If not, what might that look like?
[1] https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/where-is-freemind/1780/2
On Mon, May 20, 2019 11:39:50 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
Hi folks,
There's a thread on Discussion[1] about Magazine articles that are out of date (e.g. due to orphaned packages). I know it can't really be done automatically, but do we have a process for marking outdated articles in a way that's obvious to readers? If not, what might that look like?
Maybe something like this plugin that marks posts as outdated after a while? One release cycle maybe, given that most posts on tooling apply to current releases and we simply don't have the man power to keep all old posts up to date?
Also an issue on docs, by the way: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/116
We had someone following F14 documentation asking questions on AskFedora the other day---mostly why official documentation doesn't work.
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 5:35 PM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe something like this plugin that marks posts as outdated after a while? One release cycle maybe, given that most posts on tooling apply to current releases and we simply don't have the man power to keep all old posts up to date?
I'm not sure I'd want to automatically mark posts more than one release cycle old as outdated. I wouldn't want to send someone away unnecessarily. At least when things are outdated, it should be more obvious (e.g. commands will fail or not exist), whereas if something is falsely marked as outdated, no one will know.
Maybe we can have a flag that we set on posts when someone reports an outdated post and just have a footer that gives readers instructions on how to report that?
Alternatively, and I'm not sure how much of a burden this would be, but we could automatically email authors at each release cycle and ask them to verify that their posts are still valid and if not either update or apply this hypothetical "outdated" flag.
Also an issue on docs, by the way: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/116
We had someone following F14 documentation asking questions on AskFedora the other day---mostly why official documentation doesn't work.
Ugh. I like your proposal in that ticket. That's a slightly different approach since, in theory, we're branching the docs for each release anyway, so the latest version should exist and we can point people to it, even if the old docs are still valid. That's not the case for magazine articles.
On Wed, May 22, 2019 16:59:36 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 5:35 PM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe something like this plugin that marks posts as outdated after a while? One release cycle maybe, given that most posts on tooling apply to current releases and we simply don't have the man power to keep all old posts up to date?
I'm not sure I'd want to automatically mark posts more than one release cycle old as outdated. I wouldn't want to send someone away unnecessarily. At least when things are outdated, it should be more obvious (e.g. commands will fail or not exist), whereas if something is falsely marked as outdated, no one will know.
+1 I was working on the general assumption that with the development pace in Fedora, information is likely to get outdated every release or two---but this isn't necessary.
In posts related to tools, should we start including what versions of the tools (and the Fedora release) the article refers to as a way to make users more aware? Would that work?
Maybe we can have a flag that we set on posts when someone reports an outdated post and just have a footer that gives readers instructions on how to report that?
+1
One caveat: I don't think authors can edit articles after they've been published. So, the editors will have to do it.
Alternatively, and I'm not sure how much of a burden this would be, but we could automatically email authors at each release cycle and ask them to verify that their posts are still valid and if not either update or apply this hypothetical "outdated" flag.
I don't know how well this will work in our community where people tend to move on to other things, sometimes other communities. Additionally, it has the same issue as the previous one---the editing team will have to do more work, even if it is temporarily providing access to the authors to edit posts.
Also an issue on docs, by the way: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/116
We had someone following F14 documentation asking questions on AskFedora the other day---mostly why official documentation doesn't work.
Ugh. I like your proposal in that ticket. That's a slightly different approach since, in theory, we're branching the docs for each release anyway, so the latest version should exist and we can point people to it, even if the old docs are still valid. That's not the case for magazine articles.
Yes, not explicitly, but each post that is published really refers to the state of things at that point in time.
It's a general issue that, for example, news agencies are also grappling with. Here's an example of The Guardian now marking their posts to make it clearer to readers: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47799878
On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:58 AM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
In posts related to tools, should we start including what versions of the tools (and the Fedora release) the article refers to as a way to make users more aware? Would that work?
That's a great idea. Then at least people have some context clues to figure out if the post is out of date or not.
Alternatively, and I'm not sure how much of a burden this would be, but we could automatically email authors at each release cycle and ask them to verify that their posts are still valid and if not either update or apply this hypothetical "outdated" flag.
I don't know how well this will work in our community where people tend to move on to other things, sometimes other communities. Additionally, it has the same issue as the previous one---the editing team will have to do more work, even if it is temporarily providing access to the authors to edit posts.
My proposal assumes that the workflow goes something like this: 1. An editor gets a list of authors in the last 6 months (or 6-12 months ago, or whatever) 2. The editor sends a "hey, please check your articles and see if they're still valid. if they're not update or let me know" 3. 95% of authors ignore it 4. The editor adds the outdated flag to any posts the author lists, plus any articles reported by readers
So it is more work, but realistically probably not much more work because most authors will ignore the request. Which is an argument against doing it at all, but at least then we catch *some* before the readers do instead of catching none.
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:26 AM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:58 AM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
In posts related to tools, should we start including what versions of the tools (and the Fedora release) the article refers to as a way to make users more aware? Would that work?
That's a great idea. Then at least people have some context clues to figure out if the post is out of date or not.
Alternatively, and I'm not sure how much of a burden this would be, but we could automatically email authors at each release cycle and ask them to verify that their posts are still valid and if not either update or apply this hypothetical "outdated" flag.
I don't know how well this will work in our community where people tend to move on to other things, sometimes other communities. Additionally, it has the same issue as the previous one---the editing team will have to do more work, even if it is temporarily providing access to the authors to edit posts.
My proposal assumes that the workflow goes something like this:
- An editor gets a list of authors in the last 6 months (or 6-12
months ago, or whatever) 2. The editor sends a "hey, please check your articles and see if they're still valid. if they're not update or let me know" 3. 95% of authors ignore it 4. The editor adds the outdated flag to any posts the author lists, plus any articles reported by readers
So it is more work, but realistically probably not much more work because most authors will ignore the request. Which is an argument against doing it at all, but at least then we catch *some* before the readers do instead of catching none.
It is important to note too that the Fedora Magazine is really a blog / news source, not documentation. Do users expect to read an article that is several years old and have instructions in that still work? Would we then have to update say all the old Release Announcements to say this is an old version that has been EOL'ed?
While this would be something nice to have, IMHO keeping old articles up-to-date should definitely have a much lower priority than creating new, fresh, content.
cheers, ryanlerch
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Fedora Program Manager Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
On Wed, May 29, 2019 21:53:19 +1000, Ryan Lerch wrote:
<snip>
It is important to note too that the Fedora Magazine is really a blog / news source, not documentation.
The target audience of the magazine does not make this distinction. I wish they did, but it appears that as far as they are concerned, they are both simply official sources of information.
Do users expect to read an article that is several years old and have instructions in that still work?
If they find the article via an internet search, not only do they read them, they ask why documented information does not work: https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/dhcp-does-not-recognise-mac-address-of-inter...
As you,'ll see there, this led me to file this ticket with docs: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/116
Would we then have to update say all the old Release Announcements to say this is an old version that has been EOL'ed?
We do something of the sort already: https://fedoramagazine.org/fedora-28-end-of-life/
While this would be something nice to have, IMHO keeping old articles up-to-date should definitely have a much lower priority than creating new, fresh, content.
Sure.
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:26 AM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:58 AM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote: > > In posts related to tools, should we start including what versions of the > tools (and the Fedora release) the article refers to as a way to make > users more aware? Would that work? > That's a great idea. Then at least people have some context clues to figure out if the post is out of date or not.
Is this doable, though?
How about something like what OMG! Ubuntu does? After a certain time (one year?) they add a disclaimer at the top of the article. Just a simple "this article is old, take it with a grain of salt".
See this for example: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/04/ubuntu-15-04-download-new-features
On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 3:41 PM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 29, 2019 21:53:19 +1000, Ryan Lerch wrote:
<snip>
It is important to note too that the Fedora Magazine is really a blog /
news
source, not documentation.
The target audience of the magazine does not make this distinction. I wish they did, but it appears that as far as they are concerned, they are both simply official sources of information.
Do users expect to read an article that is several years old and have instructions in that still work?
If they find the article via an internet search, not only do they read them, they ask why documented information does not work:
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/dhcp-does-not-recognise-mac-address-of-inter...
As you,'ll see there, this led me to file this ticket with docs: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/116
Would we then have to update say all the old Release Announcements to say this is an old version that has been EOL'ed?
We do something of the sort already: https://fedoramagazine.org/fedora-28-end-of-life/
While this would be something nice to have, IMHO keeping old articles up-to-date should definitely have a much lower priority than creating
new,
fresh, content.
Sure.
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:26 AM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:58 AM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com
wrote:
> > In posts related to tools, should we start including what versions
of the
> tools (and the Fedora release) the article refers to as a way to
make
> users more aware? Would that work? > That's a great idea. Then at least people have some context clues to figure out if the post is out of date or not.
Is this doable, though?
-- Thanks, Regards,
Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD" https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Time zone: Europe/London _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
I think that although some users may be expecting the Fedora Magazine to be a knowledge resource, it is superfulous to the mandate of the magazine. That being the spreading of information about Fedora-centric "stuff". There are many times that articles fall into the howto or are very technical in nature, this is indemic of the topic area chosen not so much a core purpose of Fedora Magazine which is a place to talk about all things Fedora related. There could be an arguement for some articles to be copied over to the Quick Docs site if they present a bona fide source of information that is seen to be important for the community around Fedora. Tagging old articles, or even worse IMO updating them to current best practices/ latest tech, does not fall into the Fedora Magazine role. More importantly, there are limited resources working on the project across the spectrum, no different in the case of Fedora Magazine, so adding workload will always force a decision on what to drop doing this week. Even the example post cited as a reason in support of updating old/out of date magazine articles, was an example of a user trying to do something that was very likely out of their technical depth of understanding. More of their frustration seemed to come from communication or a lack thereof. This is just my two cents worth on the subject.
Stephen
On Wed, 2019-05-29 at 22:30 +0200, Lennart Jern wrote:
How about something like what OMG! Ubuntu does? After a certain time (one year?) they add a disclaimer at the top of the article. Just a simple "this article is old, take it with a grain of salt".
See this for example: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/04/ubuntu-15-04-download-new-features
On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 3:41 PM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 29, 2019 21:53:19 +1000, Ryan Lerch wrote:
<snip>
It is important to note too that the Fedora Magazine is really a blog /
news
source, not documentation.
The target audience of the magazine does not make this distinction. I wish they did, but it appears that as far as they are concerned, they are both simply official sources of information.
Do users expect to read an article that is several years old and have instructions in that still work?
If they find the article via an internet search, not only do they read them, they ask why documented information does not work:
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/t/dhcp-does-not-recognise-mac-address-of-inter...
As you,'ll see there, this led me to file this ticket with docs: https://pagure.io/fedora-docs/docs-fp-o/issue/116
Would we then have to update say all the old Release Announcements to say this is an old version that has been EOL'ed?
We do something of the sort already: https://fedoramagazine.org/fedora-28-end-of-life/
While this would be something nice to have, IMHO keeping old articles up-to-date should definitely have a much lower priority than creating
new,
fresh, content.
Sure.
On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:26 AM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote: On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:58 AM Ankur Sinha < sanjay.ankur@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > In posts related to tools, should we start including what
versions
of the
> tools (and the Fedora release) the article refers to as a
way to
make
> users more aware? Would that work? > That's a great idea. Then at least people have some context
clues to figure out if the post is out of date or not.
Is this doable, though?
-- Thanks, Regards,
Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD" https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
Time zone: Europe/London _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
On Thu, May 30, 2019 08:17:31 -0400, s40w5s@gmail.com wrote:
<snip> community around Fedora. Tagging old articles, or even worse IMO updating them to current best practices/ latest tech, does not fall into the Fedora Magazine role. <snip>
While I'd argue it does, we all agree that this suggestion cannot be undertaken at the moment with the limited resources at the magazine's disposal.
So, going back to making users aware of information that may no longer be applicable, the alternative suggestion is:
- mention the Fedora release the article pertains to. - mention the version of the tool the article pertains to.
Is this perhaps doable? This removes the need to update the information at a later date. I've also updated the thread subject accordingly.
On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
So, going back to making users aware of information that may no longer be applicable, the alternative suggestion is:
- mention the Fedora release the article pertains to.
- mention the version of the tool the article pertains to.
Is this perhaps doable? This removes the need to update the information at a later date. I've also updated the thread subject accordingly.
Agreed on all accounts. This doesn't have to be anything complicated, just an editorial standard that says "please indicate what version you're using in examples." So it might look like "...the examples in this article use foo 1.2.3 to..."
I like it!
I'll be reviewing the contributor guides — I'll add it there somewhere.
On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:53 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ankur Sinha sanjay.ankur@gmail.com wrote:
So, going back to making users aware of information that may no longer be applicable, the alternative suggestion is:
- mention the Fedora release the article pertains to.
- mention the version of the tool the article pertains to.
Is this perhaps doable? This removes the need to update the information at a later date. I've also updated the thread subject accordingly.
Agreed on all accounts. This doesn't have to be anything complicated, just an editorial standard that says "please indicate what version you're using in examples." So it might look like "...the examples in this article use foo 1.2.3 to..."
-- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Fedora Program Manager Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis _______________________________________________ Fedora Magazine mailing list -- magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to magazine-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://getfedora.org/code-of-conduct.html List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/magazine@lists.fedoraproject.o...
magazine@lists.fedoraproject.org