I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
Is there any possibility that it might work with some future version of Fedora KDE? Or should I resign to using it as a Windows machine, which needless to say works perfectly on it.
On Oct 4, 2015 16:11, "Timothy Murphy" gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
What does not been happy mean? That is a bit vague. If you are talking about resource requirements I would recommend you try out LXQt.
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
What does not been happy mean? That is a bit vague.
Really? I would have thought my complaint was very concrete - KDE does not run on my laptop.
If you are talking about resource requirement
Does a "resource requirement" include having a GPU that Plasma likes?
would recommend you try out LXQt.
Do you know anyone who is running LXQt on an nVidia T61?
On 10/04/2015 02:42 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
What does not been happy mean? That is a bit vague.
Really? I would have thought my complaint was very concrete - KDE does not run on my laptop.
What does it mean "does not run"? Won't start at all, stays on console? Comes up with a black screen? Your machine explodes? That could mean almost anything.
Glenn Holmer wrote:
KDE does not run on my laptop.
What does it mean "does not run"? Won't start at all, stays on console? Comes up with a black screen? Your machine explodes? That could mean almost anything.
I'm writing this on the laptop that caused all my problems - a ThinkPad 61 with nVidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU now running Fedora-23beta KDE.
I tried 4 ways of upgrading to F23beta first Fedup and 2 other upgrades I found: the recommended method in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DNF_system_upgrade and http://www.unixmen.com/fedora-23-beta-is-out-upgrade-to-fedora-23-from-fedora-22/. These all bombed out fairly early, IIRC hanging in all cases.
Finally I downloaded Fedora-Live-KDE-x86_64-23_Beta-1.iso and wrote it to a USB stick with liveusb-creator (choosing dd-mode). This ran well, and I installed F23beta on a spare partition, leaving F22 as a boot option.
The one serious problem with F23beta is that it sometimes freezes, refusing to accept any input. I have found no way of waking it except pressing the power button for 10 seconds and re-starting the system.
A minor fault is that flashes of graphic patterns appear quite often. Also there is some distortion of some web-pages, making it impossible in some cases to enter required input.
However, on the whole F23beta runs better than F22 on this laptop.
B On Oct 5, 2015 19:21, "Timothy Murphy" gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
The one serious problem with F23beta is that it sometimes freezes, refusing to accept any input. I have found no way of waking it except pressing the power button for 10 seconds and re-starting the system.
Have you tried:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1217844
ALT-F2 (krunner): kquitapp plasmashell ; plasmashell
if not, try harder:
ALT-F2 : killall plasmashell ; plasmashell
On Oct 6, 2015 1:21 AM, "Timothy Murphy" gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
Glenn Holmer wrote:
KDE does not run on my laptop.
What does it mean "does not run"? Won't start at all, stays on console? Comes up with a black screen? Your machine explodes? That could mean almost anything.
I'm writing this on the laptop that caused all my problems - a ThinkPad 61 with nVidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU now running Fedora-23beta KDE.
I tried 4 ways of upgrading to F23beta first Fedup and 2 other upgrades I found: the recommended method in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DNF_system_upgrade and <
http://www.unixmen.com/fedora-23-beta-is-out-upgrade-to-fedora-23-from-fedor...
. These all bombed out fairly early, IIRC hanging in all cases.
Finally I downloaded Fedora-Live-KDE-x86_64-23_Beta-1.iso and wrote it to a USB stick with liveusb-creator (choosing dd-mode). This ran well, and I installed F23beta on a spare partition, leaving F22 as a boot option.
The one serious problem with F23beta is that it sometimes freezes, refusing to accept any input. I have found no way of waking it except pressing the power button for 10 seconds and re-starting the system.
A minor fault is that flashes of graphic patterns appear quite often. Also there is some distortion of some web-pages, making it impossible in some cases to enter required input.
However, on the whole F23beta runs better than F22 on this laptop.
I think Plasma 5 uses OpenGL (hardware accelerated) shell, this is why display drivers have much more effect on it's stability (compared to KDE4) For your laptop, if you have hybrid graphics, probably you can disable the external GPU from the BIOS, this will give you better experience.
Mustafa
-- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
Am 06.10.2015 um 07:47 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I think Plasma 5 uses OpenGL (hardware accelerated) shell, this is why display drivers have much more effect on it's stability (compared to KDE4) For your laptop, if you have hybrid graphics, probably you can disable the external GPU from the BIOS, this will give you better experience.
and how does that explain that i had KDE4 desktop effects also configured on my IvyBridge/SandyBridge machines to use OpenGL and never saw effects like new windows sometimes appear first as a black rectangle until the window finally got displayed?
Il 06/10/2015 12:08, Reindl Harald ha scritto:
Am 06.10.2015 um 07:47 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I think Plasma 5 uses OpenGL (hardware accelerated) shell, this is why display drivers have much more effect on it's stability (compared to KDE4) For your laptop, if you have hybrid graphics, probably you can disable the external GPU from the BIOS, this will give you better experience.
and how does that explain that i had KDE4 desktop effects also configured on my IvyBridge/SandyBridge machines to use OpenGL and never saw effects like new windows sometimes appear first as a black rectangle until the window finally got displayed?
Reindl's is right. Plasma 5 graphical glitches are very annoying, months ago when I just installed F22 KDE Plasma 5 I ingenuously thought it was only a Kickoff problem and I filled a bugreport [1] "Increase transition timings between entries and sub-entries" but the problem interests all the Plasma 5 graphical user interface. As soon as possible I want to fill some bugreports using different videocards and FOSS drivers. I only need to be told if there are any Plasma and/or driver flags that need to enabled in order to get debuginfos. I will also record some videos with a camera, to better show to KDE developers what I exactly mean by "graphical glitches"
On Oct 6, 2015 1:08 PM, "Reindl Harald" h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 06.10.2015 um 07:47 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I think Plasma 5 uses OpenGL (hardware accelerated) shell, this is why display drivers have much more effect on it's stability (compared to
KDE4)
For your laptop, if you have hybrid graphics, probably you can disable the external GPU from the BIOS, this will give you better experience.
and how does that explain that i had KDE4 desktop effects also configured
on my IvyBridge/SandyBridge machines to use OpenGL and never saw effects like new windows sometimes appear first as a black rectangle until the window finally got displayed?
I don't know the details, I might be wrong but probably the effects thing is different, they said "Fully Hardware-Accelerated Graphics Stack" in Plasma 5 announcement.
Mustafa
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
On Tuesday 06 October 2015 15:03:28 Mustafa Muhammad wrote:
On Oct 6, 2015 1:08 PM, "Reindl Harald" h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 06.10.2015 um 07:47 schrieb Mustafa Muhammad:
I think Plasma 5 uses OpenGL (hardware accelerated) shell, this is why display drivers have much more effect on it's stability (compared to
KDE4)
For your laptop, if you have hybrid graphics, probably you can disable the external GPU from the BIOS, this will give you better experience.
and how does that explain that i had KDE4 desktop effects also configured
on my IvyBridge/SandyBridge machines to use OpenGL and never saw effects like new windows sometimes appear first as a black rectangle until the window finally got displayed?
I don't know the details, I might be wrong but probably the effects thing is different, they said "Fully Hardware-Accelerated Graphics Stack" in Plasma 5 announcement.
Mustafa
So please tell us... what driver actually works
Eli
On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
What does not been happy mean? That is a bit vague.
Really? I would have thought my complaint was very concrete - KDE does not run on my laptop.
Sorry... Not to me. "happy" is an emotional term... and "does not run" isn't any better.
If you are talking about resource requirement
Does a "resource requirement" include having a GPU that Plasma likes?
If you're asking if Plasma supports a particular GPU, I'm not aware of a list. I can tell you that KDE Plasma definitely has issues with hangs, freezes, etc. and they aren't limited to Nvidia, amd or intel... they seem to be pervasive. Of course you get the normal finger pointing with the KDE crowd blaming the device drivers and the device driver folks blaming KDE. However, in my instance the problem didn't occur with KDE4, doesn't occur with GNOME and doesn't happen with LXQt. You can draw your own conclusions from that... Yes, I've created bug reports... provided trace info... asked if I can provide any additional info to help resolve... crickets...
would recommend you try out LXQt.
Do you know anyone who is running LXQt on an nVidia T61?
No...but IMO it is definitely worth the time to try out LXQt. I will eliminate Plasma from the equation and may work fine for your hardware. It is extremely simple to try:
dnf groupinstall lxqt
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Of course you get the normal finger pointing with the KDE crowd blaming the device drivers and the device driver folks blaming KDE.
Can you give any specific examples of the latter (device driver folks blaming kde), because I personally have not seen any evidence of that.
If so, I'd be happy to followup with details and deeper investigations.
-- Rex
On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Rex Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu wrote:
ause I personally have not seen any evidence of that.
If so, I'd be happy to followup with details and deeper investigations.
It was in one of the KDE bug reports that I had read. I will look for it. In the meantime, they are just non-responsive. Perhaps you can do something about that?
On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Gerald B. Cox gbcox@bzb.us wrote:
would recommend you try out LXQt.
Do you know anyone who is running LXQt on an nVidia T61?
No...but IMO it is definitely worth the time to try out LXQt. I will eliminate Plasma from the equation and may work fine for your hardware. It is extremely simple to try:
dnf groupinstall lxqt
Oops forgot:
LXQt uses Openbox currently as the default. They will switch to KWin as default for wayland. Its easy to switch now, if you wish. It is done via: Desktop Settings -> Session Settings -> Basic Settings -> Window Manager
Timothy Murphy composed on 2015-10-04 20:11 (UTC+0100):
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
Is there any possibility that it might work with some future version of Fedora KDE? Or should I resign to using it as a Windows machine, which needless to say works perfectly on it.
There are better alternatives to Windows. If F21/KDE4 or CentOS aren't good enough, try Mageia 5/KDE4 recently released. OpenSUSE 13.2 has KDE4 too, and might wind up with a longer support life than MGA5. Another option is installing Trinity[1] in F22, which will allow access to the KDE5 things that do work for you, like LXDE or other DEs, but with more familiarity.
[1] https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/FedoraInstall
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 20:11 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21.
So Why you not stay in F21 ?
It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
F23 is not working better than F22 ?
what video drive you are using, xorg-x11-drv-nouveau or xorg-x11-drv-nvidia ?
The Nvidia 340.xx driver supports Quadro NVS 140M 0x0429
but RPMFusion doesn't have F23 branch ...
Is there any possibility that it might work with some future version of Fedora KDE? Or should I resign to using it as a Windows machine, which needless to say works perfectly on it.
Am 04.10.2015 um 22:31 schrieb Sérgio Basto:
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 20:11 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21.
So Why you not stay in F21?
breaking news: F21 is EOL soon
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 23:27 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 04.10.2015 um 22:31 schrieb Sérgio Basto:
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 20:11 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21.
So Why you not stay in F21?
breaking news: F21 is EOL soon
Will be EOL in two months and after be EOL, the system will continue to work (another breaking new). So if in three months I can't run a vm KDE5 with 3D enabled. I will think rebuild all KDE4 on F23 or something else, I will think there.
Am 04.10.2015 um 23:37 schrieb Sérgio Basto:
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 23:27 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 04.10.2015 um 22:31 schrieb Sérgio Basto:
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 20:11 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21.
So Why you not stay in F21?
breaking news: F21 is EOL soon
Will be EOL in two months and after be EOL, the system will continue to work (another breaking new). So if in three months I can't run a vm KDE5 with 3D enabled. I will think rebuild all KDE4 on F23 or something else, I will think there.
the system will continue to work without security updates - great - NOT - why can people in 2015 not stop talking b*** about "then run a system without any updates"?
build KDE4 for F23 - i wish you luck, until you are ready F23 is EOL
Il 04/10/2015 23:27, Reindl Harald ha scritto:
Am 04.10.2015 um 22:31 schrieb Sérgio Basto:
On Dom, 2015-10-04 at 20:11 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21.
So Why you not stay in F21?
breaking news: F21 is EOL soon
I am moving certain F21 machines to CentOS 7 that ships KDE Plasma 4 and has a support of 10 years
Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
It is unfortunate that device driver quality varies so much... I've even experienced that a couple of times for me usually-stable intel-based laptops too for past releases.
I can attest personally with a nv/intel hybrid laptop I currently inherited, the nouveau experience was pretty bad. Thankfully for me, I could disable the nv bits, and use intel exclusively.
In your particular case, it could be possible to get driver devs/maintainers to look at it closer, if they provided with good/detailed bug reports.
Looking over, https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/xorg-x11-drv-nouveau/bugs
I don't see any f23/kde specific ones filed yet. I'd encourage anyone interested in this working better to do so.
Found at least on f22-related bug, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1239284 that implies the situation there for f23 was a little better.
-- Rex
Rex Dieter wrote:
Found at least on f22-related bug, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1239284 that implies the situation there for f23 was a little better.
Ewww… | I've been playing with piglit a little to see what the OpenGL situation on | my system is. Turns out it doesn't even pass the "sanity" test. Is it really any wonder that Plasma doesn't work with such a driver?
Kevin Kofler
Am 06.10.2015 um 01:52 schrieb Kevin Kofler:
Rex Dieter wrote:
Found at least on f22-related bug, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1239284 that implies the situation there for f23 was a little better.
Ewww… | I've been playing with piglit a little to see what the OpenGL situation on | my system is. Turns out it doesn't even pass the "sanity" test. Is it really any wonder that Plasma doesn't work with such a driver?
well, on the other hand with KDE4 it worked.....
i heard the same after the switch KDE3->KDE4, always the drivers where responsible, later it worked way better and now we face the same issues
honestly, KDE needs to face the real world instead a academic perfect one which don't exist and should stop to rewrite everythjing from scratch as soon things are starting to work smooth
frankly given the display errors with 3D effects i face on SandyBrdige/IvyBridge randomly never happened with F15-F21 i wonder for *which* hardware drivers KF5 was written........
On Oct 5, 2015 20:56, "Reindl Harald" h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
well, on the other hand with KDE4 it worked.....
Right now we're discussing Nvidia... My recurring issue is with AMD, others have reported Intel... I have no issues with Plasma 4, GNOME or LXQt with Kwin. What is the common theme... Plasma 5...yet it's a driver issue - which only affects Plasma??? Ok.. But now we're going on 6 months and a new Fedora release and it isn't fixed. Killall plasmashell ; plasmashell gets old three or four times a day. I've switched to LXQt. Doesn't freeze, Qt5, Kwin, gets the job done and the developers are extremely responsive. If KDE continues along this path we will start to see distributions replacing native apps with GTK apps.
Am 06.10.2015 um 03:14 schrieb Gerald B. Cox:
On Oct 5, 2015 20:56, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
well, on the other hand with KDE4 it worked.....
Right now we're discussing Nvidia... My recurring issue is with AMD, others have reported Intel... I have no issues with Plasma 4, GNOME or LXQt with Kwin. What is the common theme... Plasma 5...yet it's a driver issue - which only affects Plasma???
the outcome when developers in a ivory tower develop for a perfect world instead the reality out there - and that was nice said!
Yeah, I agree. I've switched to LxQT at work, and my problems are all solved. Again, though I use the 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v2/3rd Gen Core processor Graphics Controller (rev 09) as a video card. So I don't know if that's helpful.
-e
On 10/05/15 21:14, Gerald B. Cox wrote:
On Oct 5, 2015 20:56, "Reindl Harald" <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
well, on the other hand with KDE4 it worked.....
Right now we're discussing Nvidia... My recurring issue is with AMD, others have reported Intel... I have no issues with Plasma 4, GNOME or LXQt with Kwin. What is the common theme... Plasma 5...yet it's a driver issue - which only affects Plasma??? Ok.. But now we're going on 6 months and a new Fedora release and it isn't fixed. Killall plasmashell ; plasmashell gets old three or four times a day. I've switched to LXQt. Doesn't freeze, Qt5, Kwin, gets the job done and the developers are extremely responsive. If KDE continues along this path we will start to see distributions replacing native apps with GTK apps.
kde mailing list kde@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/kde New to KDE4? - get help from http://userbase.kde.org
The information contained in this transmission contains privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
CAUTION: Intended recipients should NOT use email communication for emergent or urgent health care matters.
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Emilio Recio Emilio.Recio@jefferson.edu wrote:
Yeah, I agree. I've switched to LxQT at work, and my problems are all solved. Again, though I use the 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v2/3rd Gen Core processor Graphics Controller (rev 09) as a video card. So I don't know if that's helpful.
LXQt is an excellent solution for folks that want a Qt based environment that is light on resource consumption and don't need or want the razzle dazzle provided by plasma. For that matter, since you can use KWin with LXQt you really get many of the niceties anyway. Breeze, oxygen, etc. take your pick. If you want to use Dolphin, you can, but I've grown to appreciate Pcmanfm-qt... and I've ditched klipper for copyq.
Here is the bottom line about Plasma5 .... you can't have something which has freezing, display issues; let alone across multiple platforms - intel, nvidia, amd. Six months should have been sufficient time. If the explanation is "we were overwhelmed with other issues" then that says it wasn't ready for prime time.
I'm sure it will eventually be fixed, but probably after many people have moved on...
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Here is the bottom line about Plasma5 .... you can't have something which has freezing, display issues
Does it make any difference to you than a large majority of the issues weren't actually kde ones, but bugs in other components of the graphics stack?
If not, then I guess we can agree to disagree on that point (on whether plasma5 was "ready for prime-time" or not)
-- Rex
Am 06.10.2015 um 15:37 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Here is the bottom line about Plasma5 .... you can't have something which has freezing, display issues
Does it make any difference to you than a large majority of the issues weren't actually kde ones, but bugs in other components of the graphics stack?
If not, then I guess we can agree to disagree on that point (on whether plasma5 was "ready for prime-time" or not)
it does not make any difference for a suer when he is coming from a perfectly smooth and stable F21/KDE4 to a non working F22/KDE5 and shows only that KDE5 should never ever had made it into Fedora at the moment
if your desktop don't work proper, crashs, is slow and lacks features you really don't care what piece of software is responsible, KDE can't publish software rely on components which don't play together and sell that as improvement
honestly i hear the excuse "we now broke things to develop for the future where all will work" way too long - what we need as users is software *for now* and not for a unknown point in time
On 6 October 2015 at 14:47, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 06.10.2015 um 15:37 schrieb Rex Dieter:
Gerald B. Cox wrote:
Here is the bottom line about Plasma5 .... you can't have something which has freezing, display issues
Does it make any difference to you than a large majority of the issues weren't actually kde ones, but bugs in other components of the graphics stack?
If not, then I guess we can agree to disagree on that point (on whether plasma5 was "ready for prime-time" or not)
it does not make any difference for a suer when he is coming from a perfectly smooth and stable F21/KDE4 to a non working F22/KDE5 and shows only that KDE5 should never ever had made it into Fedora at the moment
if your desktop don't work proper, crashs, is slow and lacks features you really don't care what piece of software is responsible, KDE can't publish software rely on components which don't play together and sell that as improvement
honestly i hear the excuse "we now broke things to develop for the future where all will work" way too long - what we need as users is software *for now* and not for a unknown point in time
This is not unlike the pulseaudio introduction where many drivers had bugs that had never been fixed and probably would have never been fixed if PA hadn't needed things like sane mixer controls. That was fairly painful, but we are now at a much better stage than we were in the pre-PA days.
Am 06.10.2015 um 15:51 schrieb Ian Malone:
On 6 October 2015 at 14:47, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
honestly i hear the excuse "we now broke things to develop for the future where all will work" way too long - what we need as users is software *for now* and not for a unknown point in time
This is not unlike the pulseaudio introduction where many drivers had bugs that had never been fixed and probably would have never been fixed if PA hadn't needed things like sane mixer controls. That was fairly painful, but we are now at a much better stage than we were in the pre-PA days
users certainly have applauded that he had working sound in the past and wait for months / years to get it back somehow - and that's why people should stop rewrite and replace working things until they are not able to do it proper and learn from the past
it takes more time? so what! it can take as long as it takes because people have working setups
and i tell you what happens now: the code developed in a ivory tower get fixes left and right to make it somehow useable and after that it looks as ugly as before and KDE6 development will start with the same outcome as KDE4 and KDE5 - *hopefully* Fedora KDE-SIG when that happens has learned their lessons and wait as long as it takes instead ruin again our desktop expierience for the sake of be first
and frankly: KDE is a special topic because we had the same tradegy in 2009 with KDE4, GNOME developers did the same faults instead learning from the KDE fiasco and even KDE developers did not learn from their own mistakes
people make mistakes, no question, but if people repeating the same mistakes again and again it's stupidity
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
users certainly have applauded that he had working sound in the past and wait for months / years to get it back somehow - and that's why people should stop rewrite and replace working things until they are not able to do it proper and learn from the past
I would recommend you give LXQt a try.
Am 06.10.2015 um 16:36 schrieb Gerald B. Cox:
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Reindl Harald <h.reindl@thelounge.net mailto:h.reindl@thelounge.net> wrote:
users certainly have applauded that he had working sound in the past and wait for months / years to get it back somehow - and that's why people should stop rewrite and replace working things until they are not able to do it proper and learn from the past
I would recommend you give LXQt a try
not now, but for sure if i face the same comet impact to my workflow with the next iteration aka KDE6 (and i bet when things stabilize the game starts again) even after using KDE on Linux since version 1.0.0 in the 1990's i am done with it
On 6 October 2015 at 15:00, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 06.10.2015 um 15:51 schrieb Ian Malone:
On 6 October 2015 at 14:47, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
honestly i hear the excuse "we now broke things to develop for the future where all will work" way too long - what we need as users is software *for now* and not for a unknown point in time
This is not unlike the pulseaudio introduction where many drivers had bugs that had never been fixed and probably would have never been fixed if PA hadn't needed things like sane mixer controls. That was fairly painful, but we are now at a much better stage than we were in the pre-PA days
users certainly have applauded that he had working sound in the past and wait for months / years to get it back somehow - and that's why people should stop rewrite and replace working things until they are not able to do it proper and learn from the past
it takes more time? so what! it can take as long as it takes because people have working setups
I didn't say more time, I said never. And I'm not sure I really describe "now I must hunt down and kill my music player because I need to use skype" as a working setup. Similarly if you really hate plasma 5 and improving it is something you don't have or want time to spend on then that's understandable, the sensible move would be to wait it out, find another environment or somewhere where they are still on KDE4. Not everyone has the same requirements and finds their pain point in different places. Moaning about ivory towers is 1. inaccurate (sorry, how do you write a window manager when the graphics system doesn't behave as documented? you don't build any type of tower on sand), 2. has been boring for at least a month now.
Am 06.10.2015 um 17:08 schrieb Ian Malone:
I didn't say more time, I said never. And I'm not sure I really describe "now I must hunt down and kill my music player because I need to use skype" as a working setup. Similarly if you really hate plasma 5 and improving it is something you don't have or want time to spend on then that's understandable, the sensible move would be to wait it out, find another environment or somewhere where they are still on KDE4. Not everyone has the same requirements and finds their pain point in different places. Moaning about ivory towers is 1. inaccurate (sorry, how do you write a window manager when the graphics system doesn't behave as documented? you don't build any type of tower on sand), 2. has been boring for at least a month now.
breaking news: even ALSA had the capabilities of more than one audio source before pulseaudio: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=142657
find another environment: after 9 years Fedora and never been a distro-hopper to wait which piece their got broken in 2 years?
"how do you write a window manager when the graphics system doesn't behave as documented" is pure nonsense given that KDE4 had a working window manager on the same hardware
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 12:12 PM, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
"how do you write a window manager when the graphics system doesn't behave as documented" is pure nonsense given that KDE4 had a working window manager on the same hardware
I agree with you but it's academic at this point. Plasma5 broke compatibility with certain hardware. Bug reports exist, but they simply aren't a priority. I think the message is clear, you can either wait it out or switch to something else. Rex was right, it is time to move on. In my case it's to LXQt.
On 6 October 2015 at 16:12, Reindl Harald h.reindl@thelounge.net wrote:
Am 06.10.2015 um 17:08 schrieb Ian Malone:
I didn't say more time, I said never. And I'm not sure I really describe "now I must hunt down and kill my music player because I need to use skype" as a working setup. Similarly if you really hate plasma 5 and improving it is something you don't have or want time to spend on then that's understandable, the sensible move would be to wait it out, find another environment or somewhere where they are still on KDE4. Not everyone has the same requirements and finds their pain point in different places. Moaning about ivory towers is 1. inaccurate (sorry, how do you write a window manager when the graphics system doesn't behave as documented? you don't build any type of tower on sand), 2. has been boring for at least a month now.
breaking news: even ALSA had the capabilities of more than one audio source before pulseaudio: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=142657
Yes, dmix works perfectly... (Like I said, everyone has different pain points.)
On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Rex Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu wrote:
Does it make any difference to you than a large majority of the issues weren't actually kde ones, but bugs in other components of the graphics stack?
Well, first of all my issue still exists...so until it's resolved it is debatable what the issue is...
Second, reports of these issues keep coming in, so they aren't resolved.
Third, my observation is that these issues only are encountered with Plasma5. As I mentioned earlier, I don't have issues with GNOME or LXQt with KWin.
So regardless of the cause, it is a Plasma5 issue if it is only occurring with Plasma5 - and if I were on the Plasma5 team I would be aggressively working with whomever to ensure these issues were resolved. If its a matter of hardware acceleration, the end user should have an easy method to turn it off. If there exist such incompatibility it shouldn't have been mainstreamed. All this has done is given Plasma5 a bad name.
Rex Dieter wrote:
Timothy Murphy wrote:
I have a ThinkPad T61, with Nvidia G86M [Quadro NVS 140M] GPU. I like to run Fedora KDE, but my experience with successive Fedora's has not been happy. The laptop just about worked with Fedora-21. It is more or less unusable with Fedora-22, and completely useless with Fedora-23 beta.
It is unfortunate that device driver quality varies so much... I've even experienced that a couple of times for me usually-stable intel-based laptops too for past releases.
Thanks very much for your response. I should modify my critical remarks above. The versions of F23beta I was referring to were obtained by upgrading from F22 (in two different ways). I'm now running F23beta KDE installed on a spare partition from a USB stick created from Fedora-Live-KDE-x86_64-23_Beta-1.iso. This works much better on my ThinkPad T61 with nvidia GPU, in fact better than F22 on this laptop. (Both F22 and F23beta work almost perfectly on a ThinkPad T510 with intel GPU.)
In your particular case, it could be possible to get driver devs/maintainers to look at it closer, if they provided with good/detailed bug reports.
I shall try to give this later.
Looking over, https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/xorg-x11-drv-nouveau/bugs
I don't see any f23/kde specific ones filed yet. I'd encourage anyone interested in this working better to do so.
I see there is are several f23 bugs listed now. I'm trying "sudo xrandr --auto" now, as suggested in one report.
Found at least on f22-related bug, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1239284 that implies the situation there for f23 was a little better.
My experience with F22 is very similar to that described here.
The main problem with F23beta on my T61 is that about once an hour I have a total freeze, which I can only end by powering off.
A lesser problem is that some web-pages are distorted, eg the page helen/backuppc I go to for administering BackupPC on my server has lost the top of the page with Firefox and Chrome, including the text-box necessary to fill-in as a first step. Interestingly, the full page is visible with Konqueror.
I successfully run and enjoy KDE Plasma 5 on a Thinkpad T60. Your hardware is fine, you should give us the infos other people asked you.