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Kevin,

 Here's where I'm currently at (and I will try to make it as crystal
clear as possible) before we even go any further.

 1. This is a large undertaking, not a one man task and definitely not
something only I see. It's *going* to ruffle feathers because things
*will* change if this path is taken. You know as well as I do that
change is most often not well accepted, regardless of intent or need.
I do however agree that everything should be put to a vote, each item
clearly stated, understood and voted for in a peer-viewable and
organized manner. i.e. not hidden, obfuscated or obscured in any way.
 
 2. You seem to be the only with with enough interest to even reply,
save Thomasj who misread, misinterpreted and simply fired back
negatively based on who I am, and not the content or context of the
original email to this thread without the benefit of doubt or
clarification that he understood what he thought he did. Granted, I
should not have replied at all to him based on that alone. It seems we
were both ignorant and still have work to do.

 3. There are some issues with both FedoraProject.org and
FedoraUnity.org pertaining directly to #fedora* IRC channels (I'll be
reading the links you sent me later this evening, however I think I
may have been the original author of at least one of them although
Sonar_Guy posted it on my behalf).
    a. FedoraProject - Who is in control of #fedora* it's policies,
procedures and direction?
    b. FedoraUnity - Sadly, this project/group has never been well
organized in any sane or official fashion, has only one person in
control of the domains / structure & organization of content /
top-level website CMS configuration which has caused friction between
many (who I will not name but let them make their own statements), is
not an official part of the FedoraProject and therefore can do
"whatever" without any direct oversight or consequence by the
FedoraProject. I've heard before on multiple occasions "No one can
make any top level changes because it's been so highly customized none
of us even know where to begin." Which I've seen myself having paid
the hosting bill for a few years and helping manage aspects of the
Zope/Plone website which is now horribly out of date.

 4. The "good ol' boy" club attitude, looking the other way at bad
behavior simply based on who offender is, what feet might be stepped
on, who might be offended, etc rather than the actual behavior itself
and whether it's acceptable. People concerned with maintaining power,
driving the direction of things or stunting changes simply to control
them have questionable intentions in my opinion. It should not matter
if it's a channel op or someone who's just come in for the first time.

 5. Anyone not currently active on such a regular basis as required by
the task they are in control of should be required to hand over the
reigns to someone who is active and qualified for the task. You don't
take on tasks or responsibilities that require ongoing attention then
neglect or abandon them and perform them whenever it suits your fancy.
This goes for everyone from ops to website maintainers, program
coordinators, etc, really any job that requires regular attention.
This is how things fall this badly into disrepair in the first place.

 6. As for dealing with users posting outdated, false, misleading or
outright bad info, this is why I propose a unified help front that is
100% in control of the FedoraProject. Sending people to the
FedoraProject Wiki for one thing, FedoraSolved for another,
FedoraForum for yet another.. It's confusing and shows discontinuity
to the new and existing users whether they realize it consciously or
subconsciously. If there was a unified front and the channel policy
was only to send people to these help resources it would flow much
more smoothly. Please see #wordpress wordpress.org and/or talk to
Freenode IRC operator Sivel for examples on how this might be
accomplished.

 Again, I have lots of valid ideas and possible solutions for much of
the above but yelling in an empty auditorium won't get anyone
anywhere. If Fedora is to be the "best" in its product offering,
support and general appeal then the work to this end never stops. The
above items are clear indications to me and others in the community
where change is badly needed. It's certainly possible, the only real
question is if anyone else is willing to do the heavy lifting.

Thanks for your time,
- -Warren

On 12/02/2011 03:46 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:52:40 -0800 warren <warren@centoshelp.org>
> wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
>> Ultimately, I love Fedora and Red Hat and I want to be a part of
>> a community that is self-responsible and teaches that behavior
>> to others. Some ways I see accomplishing this is in the areas of
>> problem solving techniques, research skills and best practices
>> and methods so that, as a group, we can all "teach a man to fish"
>> so they may feel empowered to contribute back to the community
>> and feel supported in that effort while maintaining a
>> professional and helpful approach. This is something that
>> everyone can and should be taking back into their normal "real"
>> lives.
>
> Great. I agree.
>
>> In this vein of thinking I propose the following not-so-easy
>> undertakings to start the ball rolling:
>>
>> 1.. Full restructuring of the IRC help forum and a written clear
>> policy as to how this will be accomplished, including: a.
>> Publicly accessible "channel behavior guidelines" which all must
>> read and follow, regardless of "status".
>
> I'd be ok with that if we can draft a guideline like that we could
> reach consensus on. Any ideas what you would like it to contain?
> It's hard to make a document that lists everything anyone could do.
>
>
>> b. Agreed central help resources, forums, FP.org wiki, and other
>> tools to present a more unified public support structure.
>
> Also sounds good to me. I think in general this pretty much
> already happens. fedorasolved, fedora wiki are the vast majority of
> things used by everyone but new people. Sometimes there are other
> links that are sane from random other sites. Sometimes new people
> drop in and send links to old/bad/horrible info.
>
>> c. Abuse/sanction policies
>
> Again, I would be fine with that if we could draft and agree on
> some. I think its pretty hard to do this with a support medium,
> because so much of it's subjective as well as the fact that we have
> not too many possible options here: a) warn, b) ban/remove for
> various times, c) remove operator or helper status.
>
> Could you provide some examples of what you might like to see
> here?
>
> I think we somewhat went down this road with:
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Getting_started_with_IRC_support
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Participants
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_helpers_code_of_conduct
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_operators_code_of_conduct
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Channel_FAQ
>
> But thats all incomplete and not really where it's too great.
>
>> I believe I have the desire, time, skills, etc to help in this
>> area which would put an abrupt halt to most frustrations felt on
>> my part. Having said all this, words are cheap and actions are
>> what give us something worth appreciating and feeling we're
>> contributing towards something worthwhile. That being said, I'll
>> await to see if I'm once again ignored or if these concerns are
>> taken seriously this time.
>
> I'd be happy for you to work on the above... I think it would need
> lots of feedback and we would not implement anything until we
> reached some kind of consensus that it was ready to go.
>
> Perhaps other folks would be willing to assist? I'd be happy to
> provide feedback, but I've been busy of late, so don't know if I
> can help in the initial drafting process. I would stress that it
> would be good to share progress early and often so everyone can
> provide feedback.
>
> Those are my initial thoughts. Perhaps others will chime in.
>
> kevin
>
>
> _______________________________________________ irc-support-sig
> mailing list irc-support-sig@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/irc-support-sig

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