On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 06:43:46PM +0100, Martin Dengler wrote:
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:54:38PM +0200, Aaron Sowry wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:03:05AM +0100, Martin Dengler wrote:
> > Your point about column headers is taken (explicitly, in my mail) and
> > bears no more repeating since there's a bug about it.
>
> I didn't realise there was a bug for this, which is it?
You alluded to RH #713567 in [1], so I assumed that bug had this point
in it. Re-reading it, it does.
That bug has been closed.
> > Your point about paging continues to be that you don't
like it for the
> > purist reason that unix-y tools shouldn't format their output.
>
> This is not just purism for purism's sake.
You said tools paging their tty-destined output "irked the crap"[1]
out of you and didn't otherwise disagree that other tools do this (and
other things) based on tty-ness. I'm not sure I was wrong to read
that as a purist's lament given the additional code is trivial in
length.
This is not a deposition, and I'm not here to discuss semantics. Whatever you
took "irked the crap" to mean, the intended meaning was that it bothers me as a
symptom of poor programming convention.
> I think the point is being lost here somewhere.
> [original paging-takes-code point]
> [new points objecting to paging]
The original point and new points you just applied to the irkesome
behaviour are simply not compelling:
Matter of opinion.
that 50+ lines of pager-related C
is somehow a fearsome vector for terrible bugs and must be excised
A blatant exaggeration of what was actually said.
If, however, you really feel that you require concrete
examples, earlier in the thread it was pointed out by Lennart that "Implicit
--full when using a pager has been the default since quite some time in
systemd." I'm assuming he meant "when not using tty", but whether
that's a typo or
not, I'm not seeing this behaviour in F15 in either the tty or non-tty case
anyway. Assuming this is a bug and not just a misunderstanding, then this is
exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say that extra logic to try
and be clever *is* indeed a vector for annoying bugs.
or that the year-old chosen defaults for a new command can be
changed
with flags somehow impose a crippling learning curve. Especially,
given (like I said) the precedents and utility of the defaults (which
you didn't argue with[2]).
Again, an exaggeration, but with a thread of truth to it. "alias
systemctl=systemctl --no-pager" has been suggested as an acceptable solution to
disable paged output, except then if I pipe through less, as per every
other command I use, I lose column headers. Do I need to add "--force-headers"
or something to my alias too? Possibly not crippling, but learning to have to do
this to get sensible output is certainly a learning curve.
2. You said[3] you disputed the utility of paging-by-default, which
is
the behaviour I praised, and that I missed your dispute as to its
utility in [1], but, no, actually, you gave no reasons why it
wasn't useful in [1]. You just said it irked you, had a real
danger of scary bugs, and had a bug when no pager was present,
none of which are arguments for uselessness.
If I haven't made the disputes clear enough for you by now, then I'm afraid
I'm
not sure what else I can say. Uselessness it probably not the point here though, the
point is all of the other downsides associated with such an implementation.
Paging is certainly useful, however "|less" is not a difficult thing to type.
/Aaron