Gregory Maxwell wrote:

The string "video" doesn't occur anywhere in the current Arora git. Can you point me to more information?

See QtWebKit, which is part of Qt >= 4.4 and supports HTML 5 video in Qt >= 4.5. Arora uses QtWebKit.

In testing I find that a couple of problems: (1) it appears the it doesn't begin until it has completely transferred the file(?) (2) audio plays but video does not (3) seeking does nothing

QtWebKit's HTML 5 support apparently needs a lot of improvement. :-(

One issue is that there are multiple Phonon backends (Phonon is the Qt multimedia framework, which QtWebKit uses for video playback), Qt Software doesn't test with the xine-lib backend which is the default in KDE, whereas the developers of Amarok and some other KDE apps recommend only the xine-lib backend and test primarily with that one. There are also other technical issues with the GStreamer backend, i.e. the one which Qt Software recommends (whereas the Amarok developers say it's extremely buggy and should never be the default), which prevent us from making it the default (the bugs with Amarok, but also issues with how output selection is implemented, they use a backend-specific "GStreamer sink" setting in addition to the standard output device setting in the Phonon API, with the result that, last I checked, it didn't work out of the box with our default PulseAudio setup).

Kevin Kofler

On Jueves 04 Junio 2009 23:47:21 Kevin Kofler escribió:

Itamar Reis Peixoto wrote:

...

the end of life for flash player (HTML5)

Unfortunately, as much as I'd like that to be true, at this point it's mostly just wishful thinking. :-( (It's good that Dailymotion is leading the way there though. It's NOT good that they're hardcoding a browser check for only Firefox though, the latest Arora which does support HTML 5 video is not recognized, that's broken!)

I was really surprised - hardcoded download of FF 3.5 :(

Now we just need HTML 5 video support in Konqueror! :-) (And an entry for Firefox 3.5 in the list of fake browser IDs for crappy sites which still don't understand that sniffing user agents is broken!)

That said, unfortunately, I think we'll be stuck with some sites using Flash crap for years to come. :-( Projects like Gnash and Swfdec will remain important. I agree that people should NOT install the proprietary Flash.

Mostly it depends on YouTube - it's 90% of all Flash content for me. So if YouTube (and p0rn variants :D) adopts <video> tag, battle is nearly won. For games - <canvas> with JS is nice way. But it's missing IDE as Adobe has - my roommate is using some and I have to admit - it's really great tool - if you are more designer than coder. For now - we have technology, now we need tools.

...

I am very happy to watch a video without macromedia flash.

FYI, YouTube works with Gnash if you have the required codecs (but embedded YouTube videos elsewhere don't work). There's also the solution to download the videos from most of those sites using various downloaders or servicemenus, then watch them with any video player.

But HTML 5 with patent-free codecs is clearly the solution we should all fight for! (But hardcoded checks for only Firefox aren't!)

That's the problem - there must be at least fallback to patent-free open codec. It's OK for me to encode video to hypermegacool patent obfuscated "high" quality (marketing stuff) codec but there has to be Theora encoded video server as base to support all browsers! PS: There is nice progress on Theora field!

Jaroslav

    Kevin Kofler

Christof Damian, Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:55:08 +0200:

youtube is testing html5 too: http://www.youtube.com/html5

Except they don't use OGG, but MPEG4, so Firefox is not able to handle it (midori, epiphany/WebKit are).

Matěj

Thanks to Apple, that isn't going to be happening. Apple's pushing for the required default video codec to be the aforementioned nonfree MPEG4/H.264 codec, and they don't seem to care whether it can be shipped by anybody else.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Jaroslav Reznik jreznik@redhat.com wrote:

In Arora I can hear only audio... So it's not OK - OGG has to be THE MUST - basic codec supported on all platforms/browsers. I'm not against proprietary codecs (I don't want to use them).

Jaroslav

...

Matěj

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On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:30 PM, Gregory Maxwellgmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:

2009/6/8 Kelly Miller lightsolphoenix@gmail.com:

...

Thanks to Apple, that isn't going to be happening.  Apple's pushing for the required default video codec to be the aforementioned nonfree MPEG4/H.264 codec, and they don't seem to care whether it can be shipped by anybody else.

Perhaps pedantry but for the sake of accuracy:

Some of the patent holders in the MPEG-LA patent pool (Apple and Nokia) pushed hard for there to be no royalty-free baseline recommended in the standard. I'm not aware of anyone, Apple included, pushing for H.264 in the standard since the adoption of an encumbered format as formal formal default is simply a complete non-starter.

What Apple has done is ship systems which can only play H.264 using the video tag out of the box. You could accurately accuse Apple of pushing for H.264 as a defacto standard, but not a "required default".

For desktop Safari usage Ogg/Theora+Vorbis support can be added by installing the XiphQT codec package. While requiring an install was unfortunate flash itself is an existence proof that required installations don't make wide adoption impossible.  The apple desktops also have decent Java support and websites can fall back to java playback. (Theoretically Flash playback of Ogg/Theora is also possible now; but the intersection of Flash gurus and free software developers is nearly the empty set)

Or you can simply ship provide multiple video streams and switch them based on the useragent. (this is very likely to be the end result, even thought it sucks).

On Martes 09 Junio 2009 17:05:04 Kevin Kofler escribió:

drago01 wrote:

...

Or you can simply ship provide multiple video streams and switch them based on the useragent. (this is very likely to be the end result, even thought it sucks).

The user agent is the wrong way to check for support. Arora supports different codecs based on the platform. (It uses QtWebKit which uses Phonon which uses the platform's multimedia support. On Fedora, it will only support Ogg and other patent/royalty-free codecs out of the box, on O$ X, only MPEG4 and QuickTime stuff, on Window$, whatever M$ ships. Any other codecs have to be installed by the user.)

For me - OGG fallback is essential... There can be a list of priorities like: 1. play H264 HD HQ video 2. play LQ video 4. 5. 6. 7. play OGG (the must) and then browser can choose best suitable one or fallback to OGG.

Jaroslav

    Kevin Kofler

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Kelly Miller wrote:

Thanks to Apple, that isn't going to be happening. Apple's

pushing for the

required default video codec to be the aforementioned nonfree

MPEG4/H.264

codec, and they don't seem to care whether it can be shipped

by anybody

else.

Nokia argued against it for patent worries. Probably worried that if it did get done, some patent troll would come out of the woodwork with some obscure patent and sue all OGG the distributors.

Apple's biggest complaint was that hardware decoders for Theora were far and few between (despite there being specs for it). Their excuse was that H.264 has hardware implementations in current hardware and handhelds don't have the power to do the decoding in software.

I'm not aware of any other large companies that lobbied W3C to have no baseline instead of OGG/Theora. As much as I dislike and distrust Apple, it isn't just them. :(

However, I think that Firefox offering OGG/Theora everywhere will at least help push some of the more aware video vendors to offer OGG so they don't shove off one side of the Mac/Windows userbase with extra codec messes. I'm sure IE will just play by itself in the corner and Safari will play Apple's game no matter what happens.

- --Ben

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 5:57 AM, Jaroslav Reznik

jreznik@redhat.com wrote:

...

In Arora I can hear only audio... So it's not OK - OGG has

to be THE MUST -

...

basic codec supported on all platforms/browsers. I'm not

against

...

proprietary codecs (I don't want to use them).

Jaroslav

...

Matěj

-- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Ben BoeckelMathStuf@gmail.com wrote:

Nokia argued against it for patent worries. Probably worried that if it did get done, some patent troll would come out of the woodwork with some obscure patent and sue all OGG the distributors.

If you're going to play the numbers the MPEG codecs have a far worse track record of attracting litigation from trolls.

The argument was actually more nuanced than that. It's more along the lines of "We're already committed to shipping H.264 and taking whatever surprise litigation risk there exists from that; even if the risk of negative surprises with Ogg/Theora is lower it would still be an addition to the risk we're already assuming, even evaluating the risks of alternatives has a cost to us, so the adoption of anything as a baseline other than what we're already using is not in our interests"

Which isn't an insane argument, but it does have a simple solution: Sufficient market adoption will justify those costs.

It's also positive that the only companies who have taken a clear public position against adopting Ogg/Theora as a baseline are companies whom receive payments for the use of MPEG-LA licensed technology. Those who merely pay to play are still shipping Theora.

Apple's biggest complaint was that hardware decoders for Theora were far and few between (despite there being specs for it). Their excuse was that H.264 has hardware implementations in current hardware and handhelds don't have the power to do the decoding in software.

This isn't a correct knock in any case: Typical mobile devices (er, like the iphone) implement H.264 using the regular SIMD instruction sets of pretty boring general purpose CPUs or fairly common off the shelf DSPs (I.e. the c64x on TI OMAP). The existing handhelds very much do have the power to decode Theora in software, at least if someone would bother adding neon versions of the assembly optimized parts. (Although even my anaemic openmoko can *decode* Theora in real time with a totally unoptimized implementation; though display has bandwidth problems; most modern handhelds have far more horsepower.)

Direct "hardware" support for non-trivial parts of the decode is something that seems to have been largely abandoned in the late 90s after everyone realized that this stuff changes too fast for economic silicon implementation. When people say hardware support these days usually mean "carefully optimized versions for my embedded processor" or possibly "use of hardware overlay and colorspace conversion" which works equally well for Theora.

That said, there is a synthesizable VHDL implementation the back half of the the Theora decoder available: http://svn.xiph.org/trunk/theora-fpga/ (most of the rest of the decode process is more easily and effectively done on a general purpose CPU). So it's not even "there exists a spec" it's "there exists a hardware design needing only integration and manufacture". But as I said, generally true hardware implementation isn't done for decoders anymore. Even the $0.10 vorbis player on a chip is just software on a tiny DSP.

drago01 wrote:

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Christof Damianchristof@damian.net wrote:

...

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 09:48, Jaroslav Reznik jreznik@redhat.com wrote:

...

Mostly it depends on YouTube - it's 90% of all Flash content for me. So if YouTube (and p0rn variants :D) adopts <video> tag, battle is nearly won. For games - <canvas> with JS is nice way. But it's missing IDE as Adobe has - my roommate is using some and I have to admit - it's really great tool - if you are more designer than coder. For now - we have technology, now we need tools.

youtube is testing html5 too: http://www.youtube.com/html5

as my flash on fedora10 x86_64 is crashing all the time at the moment I am really looking forward to this.

I have some other useful flash usages too, for example the open flash chart: http://teethgrinder.co.uk/open-flash-chart-2/ , which is used by quite a bit of sites. Some google sites, like analytics and finance also use flash.

Can be done with js + svg or js + canvas the only thing that holds this technologies back is one browser that does not support them at all but has a significant market share. (MSIE)

Enter silverlight :(

--CJD

yersinia wrote:

Enter silverlight :(

And monolight

http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

Two sides of the same miserable coin.

--CJD