On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Chris Snook <csnook(a)redhat.com> wrote:
Josh Boyer wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:58:09PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote:
>>
>> Jesse Keating wrote:
>>>
>>> Back in December, I had made a change that blocked kernel-devel packages
>>> from winding up in the install media for the Fedora spin. I don't
>>> recall getting any push back at the time, but I've gotten at least one
>>> angry comment since then. So I'm putting it out for more discussion.
>>> Do we feel that the kernel-devel (5~megs) should be in the install
>>> media?
>>
>> Yes please. There's always new hardware we don't support yet, so some
>> people will need to build drivers just to get online and access the repos.
>> If we ship it on the install media, it's much easier to distribute code
>> that you're reasonably confident will work on a new install. If people have
>> to hunt down matching kernel and kernel-devel rpms, it's a moving target for
>> people working on these device drivers.
>>
>> I'm not saying we should bend over backwards for out-of-tree drivers, but
>> this is precisely the scenario that determines the first impression for
>> someone trying this "Linux" thing on their shiny new bleeding-edge box,
and
>> it's pretty easy to accomodate.
>
> Erm... if this is the first time someone is trying a shiny new "Linux"
> thing
> on a bleeding edge box, and they have to grab a kernel-devel package and
> build drivers _themselves_, then they are obviously smart enough to run
> 'yum install kernel-devel'. Somehow I think your example is slightly off.
> I don't know many Linux newbies that know 1) that they need to build a
> driver, 2) what driver to build, and 3) what packages they need to build
> it
> all without knowing how to install anything.
>
> <jedi>
> These are not the people you are targeting. They know enough to not
> require
> kernel-devel on the install media. You can move on to finding some other
> use case that makes sense.
> </jedi>
>
> josh
>
How are they going to 'yum install kernel-devel' with no internet
connection? And how does the maintainer of the not-yet-merged driver ensure
that his code always works with whatever kernel Fedora has rebased to today?
If you can be reasonably confident that every Fedora 10 user can at least
get a certain matching kernel and kernel-devel, it's a lot easier to
maintain drivers. In theory you could build packages, but when you're doing
this for Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, etc. it isn't really feasible.
I know this is a niche use case, but it's a very large niche, and it's the
niche that's most likely to become avid Linux users if we don't push them
away the first time. I know because I had this experience when I first
started maintaining the atl2 network driver. Tens of thousands of EeePC
users, many of them technically savvy but Linux novices, wanted to replace
the hacked up Xandros that ships on the Eee with something a bit more
flexible, but they needed atl2 to make it work, and it wasn't merged in the
distros yet. When fast-moving distros like Fedora rebased their kernels to
2.6.24, my code broke, but the users who had kernel-devel or equivalent on
their install media were fine, while the others either had to dig around to
find a matching kernel and development headers, since only the latest were
in the repos, or wait for me to fix it.
The situation is much worse in the wireless world, where many of the drivers
are reverse engineered and break on every new hardware rev, forcing users to
install experimental stuff that isn't ready for merging in order to get
their shiny new laptop online.
I'm not saying that kernel-devel is an absolutely critical package to have
on the install media, but it's extremely convenient at a time when users are
most frustrated. If we're going to trim the install media, which I'm not
fundamentally opposed to, there are much more frivolous things that should
go first.
-- Chris
--
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+1
This package is extremely useful and would help a lot of users if it
was on the install media (too bad that Live CD has no space for it
also).
Cheers,
Valent.
--
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