From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 11:32:22 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8216488819732324861==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:32:15 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328105912.29cad8e0.seanlkml@sympatico.ca --===============8216488819732324861== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sean : > Well, Fraunhofer has this page: > = > http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/licensing/index.html > = > Which links to : > = > http://www.mp3licensing.com/ > = > Which definitely shows royalty fees for decoders. It does. I stand corrected. = The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is there any good reason Red Hat shouldn't simply buy that license for some outfit with a track record, like the lame developers? MP3 problem solved, relatively cheaply (e.g., less than half the annual cost ofjust one additional full-time coder). Yes, I know feeding patent parasites is unpleasant. But we come back to the central question here: do we want ideological purity at the expense of = victory, or do we want actual victory so that *we* get to effectively set the terms of software development in the future? I know which side of that question *I* come down on... -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============8216488819732324861==-- From Lam at Lam.pl Tue Mar 28 11:44:14 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8857997017435863767==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Leszek Matok To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:44:02 +0200 Message-ID: <1143564243.4097.35.camel@pensja.lam.pl> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============8857997017435863767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dnia 28-03-2006, wto o godzinie 11:32 -0500, Eric S. Raymond napisa=C5=82(a= ): > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is there any good > reason Red Hat shouldn't simply buy that license for some outfit with > a track record, like the lame developers? MP3 problem solved, IIRC, the license wouldn't allow free redistribution (which is the main goal of Fedora). That way getting Fedora straight from Red Hat would be legal, but making my own respins and giving away/selling wouldn't. Lam --===============8857997017435863767== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1dmU0dVK0N6Uy93U3pZUkFpVEpBSjRoVjNYc1lZQlBrcUhwNFJh cnNZSU8rS3E1WEFDZU56ZFYKWFlsNmxvblYzamxMWmQ2U0Y1Tk9PbUk9Cj0zVG1wCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============8857997017435863767==-- From dcantrell at redhat.com Tue Mar 28 11:44:43 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6507641644373983098==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: David Cantrell To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:45:19 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328164519.GA18879@mortise.boston.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============6507641644373983098== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > sean : > > Well, Fraunhofer has this page: > > = > > http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/licensing/index.html > > = > > Which links to : > > = > > http://www.mp3licensing.com/ > > = > > Which definitely shows royalty fees for decoders. > = > It does. I stand corrected. = > = > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is there any good > reason Red Hat shouldn't simply buy that license for some outfit with > a track record, like the lame developers? MP3 problem solved, > relatively cheaply (e.g., less than half the annual cost ofjust one > additional full-time coder). > = > Yes, I know feeding patent parasites is unpleasant. But we come back to > the central question here: do we want ideological purity at the expense o= f = > victory, or do we want actual victory so that *we* get to effectively set > the terms of software development in the future? > = > I know which side of that question *I* come down on... Ease up on the asterisks... IANAL, but I see the one time royalty fee as something that wouldn't work for a project like lame or any other MP3 software project. The fee isn't even stated, they just give a range of $50K to $60K USD. And it's listed for PC software applications. What does that mean? Use their software/library/sdk? Could the project continue to release MP3 decoding and encoding code? Does it mean link in an object file that Fraunhoffer provides? What happens if lame is incorporated in to a Fedora-derived distribution that then runs on the iPod? Dangerous grounds. -- = David Cantrell Red Hat / Westford, MA --===============6507641644373983098==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Mar 28 11:45:04 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2549978164871983109==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 08:45:06 -0800 Message-ID: <1143564306.3752.60.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============2549978164871983109== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 11:32 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is there any good > reason Red Hat shouldn't simply buy that license for some outfit with > a track record, like the lame developers? MP3 problem solved, > relatively cheaply (e.g., less than half the annual cost ofjust one > additional full-time coder). That makes it distributable by lame, but not REdistributable by Fedora and any Fedora derivitives. Redistributable is the key. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============2549978164871983109== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1dnUzR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkFtUzNBSjRxd084Z0VmeEJPS3h6MThY ZVl3Mm0vRi9WUkFDZ20yZ3QKL2FpYU9IQ1RDTnp6dTdDUWNHdlpuWnc9Cj1SVEF1Ci0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============2549978164871983109==-- From fedora at adslpipe.co.uk Tue Mar 28 11:49:25 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2238014989000524394==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Burns To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:49:09 +0100 Message-ID: <44296905.70900@adslpipe.co.uk> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============2238014989000524394== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. And an =C2=A315K minimum annual royalty? Presumably they won't allow sourc= e = distribution, Fedora/RedHat might just as well point people to Fluendo's = paid up binary only MP3 plugin https://shop.fluendo.com/ --===============2238014989000524394==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 11:50:12 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4504129074824376096==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:50:05 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328165005.GB25693@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 1143564306.3752.60.camel@yoda.loki.me --===============4504129074824376096== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse Keating : > That makes it distributable by lame, but not REdistributable by Fedora > and any Fedora derivitives. Redistributable is the key. Nah, this part's easy. Lame brings up a yum repository, with mirrors, = all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files. = Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 support". -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============4504129074824376096==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 11:52:27 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5961355139016079493==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:52:13 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328165213.GC25693@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328164519.GA18879@mortise.boston.redhat.com --===============5961355139016079493== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Cantrell : > IANAL, but I see the one time royalty fee as something that wouldn't > work for a project like lame or any other MP3 software project. The fee > isn't even stated, they just give a range of $50K to $60K USD. And it's > listed for PC software applications. What does that mean? Use their > software/library/sdk? Could the project continue to release MP3 > decoding and encoding code? Does it mean link in an object file that > Fraunhoffer provides? What happens if lame is incorporated in to a > Fedora-derived distribution that then runs on the iPod? > = > Dangerous grounds. Maybe. But suppose we actually asked these questions rather than simply speculating? = -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============5961355139016079493==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 11:54:53 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3410286787179695133==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:54:43 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328165443.GD25693@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 44296905.70900@adslpipe.co.uk --===============3410286787179695133== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Burns : > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > = > >The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. > = > And an =C2=A315K minimum annual royalty? I don't see that. > Presumably they won't allow source = > distribution, Fedora/RedHat might just as well point people to Fluendo's = > paid up binary only MP3 plugin https://shop.fluendo.com/ No, there's a crucial distinction. Consumers think they should get this = capability bundled with their OS, not have to pay extra after the sale. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============3410286787179695133==-- From camilo at mesias.co.uk Tue Mar 28 11:57:02 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3641723003056654288==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Camilo Mesias To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:56:19 +0100 Message-ID: <44296AB3.50806@mesias.co.uk> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============3641723003056654288== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric > Yes, I know feeding patent parasites is unpleasant. But we come back to > the central question here: do we want ideological purity at the expense o= f = > victory, or do we want actual victory so that *we* get to effectively set > the terms of software development in the future? > = > I know which side of that question *I* come down on... It's a hollow and short lived victory if your payment ends up funding = lawsuits against other open source software providers. Or if you set a = precedent which pressures others to pay up too. Really, given Fedora's stance on non-free software I'm not sure what = you're trying to achieve here. If anyone thinks that buying a license = for lame is the way forward, let them pass their hat around; I doubt it = will be a fedora. -Cam -- = camilo(a)mesias.co.uk <-- --===============3641723003056654288==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 28 11:57:04 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3223693194181561886==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:54:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============3223693194181561886== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:32:15 -0500 "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is there any good > reason Red Hat shouldn't simply buy that license for some outfit with > a track record, like the lame developers? MP3 problem solved, > relatively cheaply (e.g., less than half the annual cost ofjust one > additional full-time coder). > = > Yes, I know feeding patent parasites is unpleasant. But we come back to > the central question here: do we want ideological purity at the expense o= f = > victory, or do we want actual victory so that *we* get to effectively set > the terms of software development in the future? > = > I know which side of that question *I* come down on... Well if you believe Wikipedia, the patents expire in 2010 so if we = can just keep this debate up for four years or so.... BTW, Wikipedia also says: "Additionally, patent holders declined to enforce license fees on = open source decoders, allowing many free MP3 decoders to develop." But gives no references and i've been unable to find any myself. Sean --===============3223693194181561886==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Mar 28 12:00:37 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7498831852977259444==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:00:40 -0800 Message-ID: <1143565240.3752.67.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 20060328165005.GB25693@thyrsus.com --===============7498831852977259444== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 11:50 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Nah, this part's easy. Lame brings up a yum repository, with mirrors, = > all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files. = > Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 > support". Ah, but then it isn't IN Fedora at all. Fedora is just configured to be able to obtain it. Something different. Fluendo has a distributable mp3 plugin for gstreamer, however you do have to register for it, so no pointing yum at it. I can't say whether or not registration is part in parcel w/ the paid license to distribute mp3 decoders, but if so, no automated installations will be possible w/out the interaction of registering. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============7498831852977259444== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1d1NDR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkFrN3NBSjQzWVhLTG5kd25xZ1JhVEF2 S0g4MXZ2U1FhdGdDZlZZTWYKRGpVbDRDZDVhcUNOLytUODVNWVpJemM9Cj0vSDhiCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============7498831852977259444==-- From jdesbonnet at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 12:01:03 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7178527495843831375==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Joe Desbonnet To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:00:53 +0100 Message-ID: <1cef3e950603280900l639a35f1p47658dadab00ea1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328165443.GD25693@thyrsus.com --===============7178527495843831375== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have Redhat lawyers approached Fraunhofer about this? I can't see any financial down side for them -- it would be another licence sale. On 3/28/06, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Burns : > > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > > >The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. > > > > And an =C2=A315K minimum annual royalty? > > I don't see that. > > > Presumably they won't allow source > > distribution, Fedora/RedHat might just as well point people to Fluendo's > > paid up binary only MP3 plugin https://shop.fluendo.com/ > > No, there's a crucial distinction. Consumers think they should get this > capability bundled with their OS, not have to pay extra after the sale. > -- > Eric S. Raymond > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > --===============7178527495843831375==-- From dcantrell at redhat.com Tue Mar 28 12:02:53 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4047252912784944850==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: David Cantrell To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:03:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328170330.GB18879@mortise.boston.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328165213.GC25693@thyrsus.com --===============4047252912784944850== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > David Cantrell : > > IANAL, but I see the one time royalty fee as something that wouldn't > > work for a project like lame or any other MP3 software project. The fee > > isn't even stated, they just give a range of $50K to $60K USD. And it's > > listed for PC software applications. What does that mean? Use their > > software/library/sdk? Could the project continue to release MP3 > > decoding and encoding code? Does it mean link in an object file that > > Fraunhoffer provides? What happens if lame is incorporated in to a > > Fedora-derived distribution that then runs on the iPod? > > = > > Dangerous grounds. > = > Maybe. But suppose we actually asked these questions rather than simply > speculating? = Because the software would still be in opposition to the goals of the Fedora Project. MP3 support isn't just on the ForbiddenItems list to annoy people. Like many others have stated, the project aims to produce a free and open source Linux distribution that is redistributable by all. Having a paid-up royalty for a proprietary technology just so we can include it in the distribution defeats the main goal. -- = David Cantrell Red Hat / Westford, MA --===============4047252912784944850==-- From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 12:06:20 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5636542494414334157==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jef Spaleta To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:06:10 -0500 Message-ID: <604aa7910603280906x4aa2458fge8db8526122e8c3@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============5636542494414334157== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/28/06, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is that for the codebase or per distributor of binaries? Considering that http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html delibrately states that you need to pay royalities even if you licensed the the code from a third-party, I do not believe the "paid up" option would cover everyone using the codebase from a single open source project as you would suggest it would. In fact it seems to me the royalty is meant to be paid per distributing entity of the binary format. Feel free to contact the licensing entity which controls the patent royalty licensing terms and clear that up. What exactly is "paid up"? If the lame project "paid up" would anyone be allowed to re-distribute binaries using the lame project source code without paying additional royalties? Would people be allowed to make modified versions of lame source code and redistribute binaries based on that modified source without having to pay additional royalties? Exactly what is covered by the "paid up" language could even impact the ability of 3rd party vendors who create verbatim copies of the fedora installation media and update packages.. if the patent holder determines that someone like cheapbytes counts a new distributing entity. For all we know the "paid up" terms cover only public distribution from locations controled by the "paid up" entity. Without specific language covering the terms which outline "paid up" status, parsed by a lawyer, we can't even assume that public mirrors on servers outside the control of Red Hat could carry this material. I think you have read too much into the phrase "paid up" and have given the patent holder too much benefit of the doubt as to their intent with that phrase. We should all refrain from making too many assumptions that support our specific goals with regard to being able to provide as much mp3 decoding support as is reasonable. Since you seem to think there are yet to be discovered options in this area for the community to "pay up" for a codebase, please contact the patent holds for more information regarding the specific terms and conditions detailing "paid up" status... especially with regard to conditions as to coverage afforded to third parties who of redistribute source code, binaries and modifications of both. I look forward to your detailed analysis as to what options that we as upstanding members of the foss community have after you have had a chance to contact the appropriate patent holds and have reviewed the specific terms and conditions of the "paid up" licensing option. -jef --===============5636542494414334157==-- From fedora at adslpipe.co.uk Tue Mar 28 12:11:56 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6631365052193253071==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Burns To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:40 +0100 Message-ID: <44296E4C.5030808@adslpipe.co.uk> In-Reply-To: 20060328165443.GD25693@thyrsus.com --===============6631365052193253071== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > I don't see that. At the bottom of http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html it's not clear if the minimum royalty is only applicable when paying = "per unit" or not. > No, there's a crucial distinction. Consumers think they should get this = > capability bundled with their OS, not have to pay extra after the sale. But the price from Fluendo's shop is =E2=82=AC0.00 per plugin, ithough t wo= uld = be better if it were able to be distributed as part of the O/S --===============6631365052193253071==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 12:17:40 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7878627815558366897==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:17:33 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328171733.GB26011@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 1143565240.3752.67.camel@yoda.loki.me --===============7878627815558366897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse Keating : > On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 11:50 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > Nah, this part's easy. Lame brings up a yum repository, with mirrors, = > > all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files= . = > > Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 > > support". > = > Ah, but then it isn't IN Fedora at all. Fedora is just configured to be > able to obtain it. Something different. Yes. This is where yum helps us win big. The consumer doesn't care if his overhead is as low as pushing a button. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============7878627815558366897==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 12:19:15 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8907852032318332454==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:19:09 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328171909.GC26011@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328170330.GB18879@mortise.boston.redhat.com --===============8907852032318332454== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Cantrell : > Because the software would still be in opposition to the goals of the > Fedora Project. MP3 support isn't just on the ForbiddenItems list to > annoy people. Like many others have stated, the project aims to produce > a free and open source Linux distribution that is redistributable by > all. Having a paid-up royalty for a proprietary technology just so we > can include it in the distribution defeats the main goal. See my suggestion about a pointer to a (hypothetical) lame-hosted yum = repository. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============8907852032318332454==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 12:20:17 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7058608764778281505==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:20:07 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328172007.GD26011@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 604aa7910603280906x4aa2458fge8db8526122e8c3@mail.gmail.com --===============7058608764778281505== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff Spaleta : > Since you seem to think there are yet to be discovered options in this > area for the community to "pay up" for a codebase, please contact the > patent holds for more information regarding the specific terms and > conditions detailing "paid up" status... especially with regard to > conditions as to coverage afforded to third parties who of > redistribute source code, binaries and modifications of both. I look > forward to your detailed analysis as to what options that we as > upstanding members of the foss community have after you have had a > chance to contact the appropriate patent holds and have reviewed the > specific terms and conditions of the "paid up" licensing option. I'd be willing. But this really needs to be done by a lawyer. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============7058608764778281505==-- From seg at haxxed.com Tue Mar 28 12:35:53 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7970224952425585393==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Callum Lerwick To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:42:39 -0600 Message-ID: <1143567760.10632.33.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: 20060328165005.GB25693@thyrsus.com --===============7970224952425585393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 11:50 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Jesse Keating : > > That makes it distributable by lame, but not REdistributable by Fedora > > and any Fedora derivitives. Redistributable is the key. > = > Nah, this part's easy. Lame brings up a yum repository, with mirrors, = > all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files. = > Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 > support". Isn't this exactly what Livna is for? (Except for the shipping in the distribution part...) Perhaps Livna should have some kind of "Make everything work" meta-package. Include the macromedia repo in its release package too. I've had good success telling people in #fedora how to get nvidia's drivers with just two commands. Its simply not that hard. The problem is education. And of course Red Hat forbids itself from even mentioning Livna... (I see http://home.gagme.com/greg/linux/fc5-tips.php handles this pretty well. Something like this should be on Livna's site, and be the top hit for "Fedora MP3 DVD AVI playback"...) --===============7970224952425585393== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1hXT0kzQlZLUmNyWDdjUkFuL1lBSjlkdzBCbkpDRkRSU3U1ckdQ SmpGNkhnTmhyWEFDZUxidUYKSVduK0VQS0pDUzlzNUJ5aEVYQmg4bTA9Cj1GSlErCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============7970224952425585393==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Mar 28 12:41:41 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0717029151613327187==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:41:44 -0800 Message-ID: <1143567704.3752.79.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 20060328171909.GC26011@thyrsus.com --===============0717029151613327187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 12:19 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > See my suggestion about a pointer to a (hypothetical) lame-hosted yum = > repository. This doesn't change the fact that mp3 technology isn't free by the terms of Fedora. We don't want to promote its use. We promote the use of ogg and other FREE encodings. This is our stand. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============0717029151613327187== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1hWWTR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkFwSDJBSjQ5RlFVT1N2WGlUVkF5bTF4 N2U4WGVoMDJJSHdDZ3NaTlcKR1ZkcjU2ZEYzMXY2TFRabzBsZ3hFQVE9Cj1PbEtaCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============0717029151613327187==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Mar 28 12:43:52 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3764082747756969698==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 09:43:55 -0800 Message-ID: <1143567835.3752.82.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 1143567760.10632.33.camel@localhost --===============3764082747756969698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 11:42 -0600, Callum Lerwick wrote: > Isn't this exactly what Livna is for? (Except for the shipping in the > distribution part...) > = > Perhaps Livna should have some kind of "Make everything work" > meta-package. Include the macromedia repo in its release package too. > = > I've had good success telling people in #fedora how to get nvidia's > drivers with just two commands. Its simply not that hard. The problem is > education. And of course Red Hat forbids itself from even mentioning > Livna... Livna provides things which are legal in the country that Livna resides in. If it is illegal in the country that Livna exists in, Livna will not ship it. So the entire 'make it work' stack may not be hostable by Livna. Fedora by design wants to make it work using FOSS, free and opensource software. Anything beyond that is beyond the stated goals of the Fedora Project. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============3764082747756969698== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1hYYjR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkFxSUFBSjBla1Z1cFM1UHN2bmY4TkpC UG9XL05SVFdyeGdDZllJaGEKU2Q0UGFkUlg5bVVKZW5rL2RYRitUU3c9Cj1UVTVJCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============3764082747756969698==-- From alan at redhat.com Tue Mar 28 12:56:10 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8036259246282596943==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:56:08 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328175608.GA24725@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328163215.GA25428@thyrsus.com --===============8036259246282596943== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 11:32:15AM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > The page says $50K one time flat fee for a decoder. Is there any good > reason Red Hat shouldn't simply buy that license for some outfit with > a track record, like the lame developers? MP3 problem solved, > relatively cheaply (e.g., less than half the annual cost ofjust one > additional full-time coder). Because that license only covers a single seller of decoders selling a sing= le product in a proprietary manner. The GPL sensibly prohibits such sellouts. = The price they want for an 'all GPL use' license will probably be a little bit higher probably hundreds of times higher > the central question here: do we want ideological purity at the expense o= f = > victory, or do we want actual victory so that *we* get to effectively set > the terms of software development in the future? Learn from history Eric. Unless you are careful to keep your beliefs and ethics intact you become what you fight, whether its the USA versus the USSR or free software versus proprietary. Alan --===============8036259246282596943==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 12:58:58 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3405370516058565678==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:58:22 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328175822.GA26482@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 1143567704.3752.79.camel@yoda.loki.me --===============3405370516058565678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse Keating : > This doesn't change the fact that mp3 technology isn't free by the terms > of Fedora. We don't want to promote its use. We promote the use of ogg > and other FREE encodings. This is our stand. So promote them already. Promote the hell out of them. I'll help; in fact, I already have. But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If we don't meet what people actually want to do with their computers, we'll lose. And we'll *deserve* to lose. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============3405370516058565678==-- From alan at redhat.com Tue Mar 28 13:00:11 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4164825663158580043==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:00:10 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328180010.GB24725@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328165005.GB25693@thyrsus.com --===============4164825663158580043== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 11:50:05AM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files. = > Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 > support". So if we carry one vendor how do we decide which of a thousand rival vendors get into the default yum.conf.d and how do we then audit them. Shall we sell icons on the desktop like a certain other vendor did ? What will you pay to have the fetchmail yum repository in by default..? See thats not the way to go for Fedora. It might be a brief, interesting, a= nd maybe profitable racket. With no non-free vendor in the default yum.conf the problem doesn't occur. They can all compete freely using market forces for your clicks and your money. What would be useful (free or nonfree) is an xml/yum-repository type format that could be hooked into firefox and friends so you can = "Click here to subscribe to fetchmail-pro" etc --===============4164825663158580043==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 13:01:19 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4652432454869383937==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:01:06 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328180106.GB26482@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 1143567760.10632.33.camel@localhost --===============4652432454869383937== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Callum Lerwick : > On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 11:50 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > Jesse Keating : > > > That makes it distributable by lame, but not REdistributable by Fedora > > > and any Fedora derivitives. Redistributable is the key. > > = > > Nah, this part's easy. Lame brings up a yum repository, with mirrors, = > > all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files= . = > > Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 > > support". > = > Isn't this exactly what Livna is for? (Except for the shipping in the > distribution part...) Couldn't be livna; that's going to carry stuff we genuinely can't go near. > Perhaps Livna should have some kind of "Make everything work" > meta-package. Include the macromedia repo in its release package too. See, now that's thinking along the right lines. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============4652432454869383937==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Mar 28 13:06:38 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0692013986053517962==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:06:35 -0800 Message-ID: <1143569195.3752.100.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 20060328175822.GA26482@thyrsus.com --===============0692013986053517962== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 12:58 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > So promote them already. Promote the hell out of them. I'll help; > in fact, I already have. > = > But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If we don't meet what > people actually want to do with their computers, we'll lose. And we'll > *deserve* to lose. And if we don't take a stand, we lose. And we'll deserve to lose. We can't promote a free solution while at the same time saying "ok, well here is this if you don't REALLY want to use FOSS". Users will take the path of least resistance. We're trying to make it so that FOSS is that path, but if !FOSS becomes an easier path, thats where users will go, and we've lost the battle. I'm surprised that you of all people don't see this. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============0692013986053517962== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1hzcjR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkFpK2hBSjR3SldRUy8xdWE5SmRZV21L bTYrZXZQWFlZbndDZlJVd2MKK29MK3V6VVZqR3VENTZlcDh4TGhLUmc9Cj1LbExpCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============0692013986053517962==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 28 13:07:05 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7809296166446222616==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:04:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060328180010.GB24725@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============7809296166446222616== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:00:10 -0500 Alan Cox wrote: > On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 11:50:05AM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > all legal and proper. Fedora carries it in the stock yum.repos.d files= . = > > Post-installation instructions say "push this button to collect MP3 > > support". > = > So if we carry one vendor how do we decide which of a thousand rival vend= ors > get into the default yum.conf.d and how do we then audit them. Shall we > sell icons on the desktop like a certain other vendor did ? > = > What will you pay to have the fetchmail yum repository in by default..? > = > See thats not the way to go for Fedora. It might be a brief, interesting,= and > maybe profitable racket. With no non-free vendor in the default yum.conf > the problem doesn't occur. They can all compete freely using market forces > for your clicks and your money. > = > What would be useful (free or nonfree) is an xml/yum-repository type form= at > that could be hooked into firefox and friends so you can = > = > "Click here to subscribe to fetchmail-pro" > = Already possible. Repository maintainer publishes a link on their = website to a rpm that installs a repo file. Click on the link, click "Install RPM" when prompted and Bob's your uncle. Sean --===============7809296166446222616==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue Mar 28 13:08:00 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0076036658665046302==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:07:41 +0200 Message-ID: <1143569262.2523.18.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: 20060328172007.GD26011@thyrsus.com --===============0076036658665046302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le mardi 28 mars 2006 =C3=A0 12:20 -0500, Eric S. Raymond a =C3=A9crit : > Jeff Spaleta : > > Since you seem to think there are yet to be discovered options in this > > area for the community to "pay up" for a codebase, please contact the > > patent holds for more information regarding the specific terms and > > conditions detailing "paid up" status... especially with regard to > > conditions as to coverage afforded to third parties who of > > redistribute source code, binaries and modifications of both. I look > > forward to your detailed analysis as to what options that we as > > upstanding members of the foss community have after you have had a > > chance to contact the appropriate patent holds and have reviewed the > > specific terms and conditions of the "paid up" licensing option. > = > I'd be willing. But this really needs to be done by a lawyer. You may like to know the fluendo people bought their own mp3 patent license, and due to the license conditions : 1. they had to rewrite their own mp3 code, the major codebases being GPLed which is not compatible with the patent licensing terms 2. you have to get the mp3 binary directly from them as the patent license is to them only 3. the patent license covers one binary, they give you the code but if you rebuild it the result is not allowed I sure hope Red Hat spends their money in more productive areas -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============0076036658665046302== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlFWUVBQkVDQUFZRkFrUXBlMjBBQ2drUUkyYlZLRHNwOGcxdUh3Q2dzcndnU3ll R1U0S3p2L2dYMFNkcU9lSlYKbXFFQW9KdytiMnYwTzV5MlhrVVU3V3c3N2Y1K3hEaWYKPWhCc3gK LS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCg== --===============0076036658665046302==-- From andy at warmcat.com Tue Mar 28 13:16:13 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8738687124713366857==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:15:56 +0100 Message-ID: <44297D5C.90504@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328175822.GA26482@thyrsus.com --===============8738687124713366857== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If we don't meet what > people actually want to do with their computers, we'll lose. And we'll > *deserve* to lose. This thinking is worse than the purist/zealot thinking you were = complaining about, since it has a fuzzy idea of what losing and winning = actually mean, yet it makes the only goal to 'win'. Even if, say, mp3 = and quicktime are compromised into the OS, are you still 'losing' if = some users can't have their HDTV WMV9 and complain loudly about it? = There's no end to it down that path. > But don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Ain't that exactly what you are doing right now? Fedora under the = current definition really is pretty good. -Andy --===============8738687124713366857== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzI4 MTgxNTU2WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUhpr361nDf9wVfb3em8jRiIFbY1MwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAJgcCD6t2t9Are+T0ox3LV22s0Tl0PNLxrY3RDENCllff2Qw0KCdmA9TCNWjh eKWk/BtMLp38HvKR2y4dpHJBPGypvTb79zT3Q2yQ9dkNH37svo5Q1ry9GbV3mW8o0s+NjnUnqfAP SxQn6eWFvPN9NiRq1FLNtd0uZAebOVnB3SncaL2KDZvpanwMKkfdgiyQlxUu5/dWg2d4JwLg8up7 iWpHVrG10jA3U4T4INYtwMyJ4e81T049PJ2LRZxAx0mGuMrnD9nQ0puEJwE9XVyd6dH3NmlRhykp cyQ0Vp6ga4nLbHmNNyIigFh2u6gL8uyDtMC6DvKUr3g+EqjzK3twYQAAAAAAAA== --===============8738687124713366857==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 13:22:55 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6697588951328496796==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:22:43 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328182243.GC26482@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328175608.GA24725@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============6697588951328496796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan Cox : > Learn from history Eric. Unless you are careful to keep your beliefs and > ethics intact you become what you fight, whether its the USA versus the U= SSR > or free software versus proprietary. Oh, I have learned from history all right. You might recall that I learned enough to do some of the heaviest work at busting us out of our comfortable techie ghetto. A lot of what I learned during that process is that the zealots for a cause are frequently its worst enemies in the end. Yes, hold hard to your ethics -- until the point where your preconceptions prevent you from engaging with *reality*, at which point they've become useless as a guide to achieving your original lofty goals. The reality, in this case, is that ordinary computer users simply don't give a shit about anything but "does it do what I want at a price I'm willing to pay"? If we don't meet those expectations, all the nobility of soul in the universe won't make us any more than another failed cabal of crackpot idealists. On the level of goals, I'm just as hard-core an idealist and visionary as you or anyone else here. But I never forget Santayana's definition of a fanatic: "One who redoubles his efforts after he has forgotten his aim". Feeling virtuous and self-justified must not be the end goal, *successfully changing the world for the better* must be. If that means making tactical compromises in the present so we can capture the mass market and wind up in a position to bring overwhelming pressure on hardware manufacturers and stiff-arm would-be IP predators in the future, then hell yes. I'm for it. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============6697588951328496796==-- From seg at haxxed.com Tue Mar 28 13:28:50 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4258825509703200978==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Callum Lerwick To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:35:50 -0600 Message-ID: <1143570951.10632.55.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: 44297D5C.90504@warmcat.com --===============4258825509703200978== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And the argument devolves into the age old idealist vs realist conflict. Personally, I believe Linux has been so successful exactly because of Linus's "Best is the enemy of the good" philosophy. But that's just me, a realist. All useful discussion in the thread has ended. Move along, nothing to see here. --===============4258825509703200978== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1lJR0kzQlZLUmNyWDdjUkFteFFBS0NMNFNTTlNISXdEMFFuVk43 Rk10aFRSWFA4VUFDZ2tTeEsKVVIwTmFNWXh0S3VvanFleFI1akRqcnc9Cj1PWERpCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============4258825509703200978==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 13:30:58 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9016579858509073912==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:30:25 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328183025.GD26482@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 1143569195.3752.100.camel@yoda.loki.me --===============9016579858509073912== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse Keating : > Users will take the > path of least resistance. Correct. And right now, their path of least resistance is Windows or a Mac. > We're trying to make it so that FOSS is that > path, but if !FOSS becomes an easier path, thats where users will go, > and we've lost the battle. I'm surprised that you of all people don't > see this. What I see is that !FOSS is already the easier path. We can't change that by refusing to support MP3. All we can do with that choice is make the road= to = open source unattractive because *it doesn't meet their needs*. Trying to tell them "well, you shouldn't want what you want" is just nuts. = It's denial. They'll write us off as kooks, and with good reason. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============9016579858509073912==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 13:33:54 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4043413512035833201==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:33:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328183336.GE26482@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328180010.GB24725@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============4043413512035833201== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan Cox : > So if we carry one vendor how do we decide which of a thousand rival vend= ors > get into the default yum.conf.d and how do we then audit them. Shall we > sell icons on the desktop like a certain other vendor did ? You see a problem, I see a way to please users and capture a revenue stream at the same time. What's not to like? = > What will you pay to have the fetchmail yum repository in by default..? Nothing. Fetchmail isn't proprietary. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============4043413512035833201==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 28 13:39:15 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0981118485099784696==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:36:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 1143570951.10632.55.camel@localhost --===============0981118485099784696== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 12:35:50 -0600 Callum Lerwick wrote: > And the argument devolves into the age old idealist vs realist conflict. I'm so tired of the proprietary voices claiming themselves as the voices = of realism. It is REALISTIC to think that we can be a distribution focused on providing open source solutions. It's realistic to know that means we won't appeal to everyone or service everyones needs. It's realistic to know that it doesn't matter a tinkers damn because that's not what we're interested in. People who are passionate about developing open source solutions can be very realistic and bloody well reject proprietary solutions at the same time. > Personally, I believe Linux has been so successful exactly because of > Linus's "Best is the enemy of the good" philosophy. But that's just me, > a realist. = Exactly. Listening to all the proprietary zealots demands to have the very best proprietary formats may very well be the = enemy of having good open source alternatives. Why the hell does everyone think we have to take over the world? We're just a little open source distribution trying to make open source solutions. Why the fuck is that so hard to understand without caling someone an idealist? Sean --===============0981118485099784696==-- From alan at redhat.com Tue Mar 28 13:39:35 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8814515936249077163==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:39:33 -0500 Message-ID: <20060328183933.GA14374@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328182243.GC26482@thyrsus.com --===============8814515936249077163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 01:22:43PM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Oh, I have learned from history all right. You might recall that I > learned enough to do some of the heaviest work at busting us out of > our comfortable techie ghetto. Perhaps, or maybe you were just like Canute only you were saying that the tide would come in.... > The reality, in this case, is that ordinary computer users simply > don't give a shit about anything but "does it do what I want at a > price I'm willing to pay"? If we don't meet those expectations, all That sounds more like Ubuntu's goals than Fedora. Fedora is intended to be a testing ground for doing cool and exciting things with free software. In the Ubuntu case you are making some interesting arguments, but Fedora isn't intended to be Mum's new desktop, cool if it works out that way but its not the design spec. Alan --===============8814515936249077163==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Mar 28 13:43:04 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5567091401854367785==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 10:43:01 -0800 Message-ID: <1143571381.3752.115.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 20060328183025.GD26482@thyrsus.com --===============5567091401854367785== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 13:30 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Correct. And right now, their path of least resistance is Windows or a Ma= c. And this hasn't changed in a long time. > > We're trying to make it so that FOSS is that > > path, but if !FOSS becomes an easier path, thats where users will go, > > and we've lost the battle. I'm surprised that you of all people don't > > see this. > = > What I see is that !FOSS is already the easier path. We can't change that > by refusing to support MP3. All we can do with that choice is make the ro= ad to = > open source unattractive because *it doesn't meet their needs*. We make FOSS the easier path by improving the software built around FOSS technology, not by compromising our integrity by stooping to the non-free market place. Total global domination isn't our goal, and if it is your goal for a distro, perhaps you need to find a new distro. Our goal is the promotion of FOSS and FOSS technologies though a damned fine distribution built from FOSS. > Trying to tell them "well, you shouldn't want what you want" is just nuts= . = > It's denial. They'll write us off as kooks, and with good reason. No, we say Here, look at this better technology and software. Isn't this nice to use? It's already installed and ready for use. Ever wonder how MSFT won the last browser war? IE was pre-installed, path of least resistance. It wasn't BETTER than Netscape (at the time), but it was far easier to use. Same with their media players. THIS is a page we can take out of their book, make our software that is preinstalled a nicer avenue and an easier avenue. And by-gum, if a user has to go install an mp3 plugin from somewhere ! Fedora, well thats not the end of the world. I do recall having to do that with Windows not too long ago. Ditto DVD playback. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============5567091401854367785== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS1lPMTR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkFsejdBSndPVVhkYXcxVllkMG8ycndI d1Blb3hYYklHcVFDZVB1ejQKenhXTy9DZmYvM25NNGZkS2QvMVlXREU9Cj1TV3dBCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============5567091401854367785==-- From abraxis at telkomsa.net Tue Mar 28 14:21:33 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3739744427787099703==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Neil Thompson To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:21:08 +0200 Message-ID: <20060328192108.GH15924@eeyore.32.boerneef.vornavalley> In-Reply-To: 20060328182243.GC26482@thyrsus.com --===============3739744427787099703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 28, 2006 at 01:22:43PM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Alan Cox : > > Learn from history Eric. Unless you are careful to keep your beliefs and > > ethics intact you become what you fight, whether its the USA versus the= USSR > > or free software versus proprietary. > = > Oh, I have learned from history all right. You might recall that I > learned enough to do some of the heaviest work at busting us out of > our comfortable techie ghetto. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing you did the "heaviest work" on was = perverting the Free Software movement into the bletcherous abomination that is "Open S= ource". I think T.S. Eliot said it best - Now is my way clear, now is the meaning plain: Temptation shall not come in this kind again. The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason. Although I am pretty sure that your way is not even the "right deed". -- = Cheers! (Relax...have a homebrew) Neil THEOREM: VI is perfect. PROOF: VI in roman numerals is 6. The natural numbers < 6 which divide 6 a= re 1, 2, and 3. 1+2+3 =3D 6. So 6 is a perfect number. Therefore, VI is perf= ect. QED -- Arthur Tateishi --===============3739744427787099703==-- From pjones at redhat.com Tue Mar 28 16:13:23 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6559200067342387187==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Peter Jones To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:12:33 -0500 Message-ID: <1143580354.3095.27.camel@vroomfondel.internal.datastacks.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328171909.GC26011@thyrsus.com --===============6559200067342387187== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 12:19 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > David Cantrell : > > Because the software would still be in opposition to the goals of the > > Fedora Project. MP3 support isn't just on the ForbiddenItems list to > > annoy people. Like many others have stated, the project aims to produce > > a free and open source Linux distribution that is redistributable by > > all. Having a paid-up royalty for a proprietary technology just so we > > can include it in the distribution defeats the main goal. > = > See my suggestion about a pointer to a (hypothetical) lame-hosted yum = > repository. Ask your wife about "contributory infringement". -- = Peter --===============6559200067342387187==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 21:41:32 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2974739397459031262==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:44:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20060329024430.GA5093@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 1143580354.3095.27.camel@vroomfondel.internal.datastacks.com --===============2974739397459031262== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter Jones : > Ask your wife about "contributory infringement". Quite familiar with the concept, thanks. Whether it would apply here would depend totally on the negotiated wording of the license. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============2974739397459031262==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 28 22:09:42 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7307702790143911376==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:02:35 -0500 Message-ID: <20060329010235.GA3395@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060328183933.GA14374@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============7307702790143911376== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan Cox : > Perhaps, or maybe you were just like Canute only you were saying that > the tide would come in.... Yes, I think that's arguably true about my original work identifying the many-eyeballs effect and so forth. Richard Gabriel came within an angstrom of getting all that ten years before I did in his "Worse is Better" paper, and I've been saying for years that somebody else would have between 1994-2000 if I hadn't. The evangelism to the suits, though? Not so much. I went out on a hell = of a limb those first couple of years. We have the luxury of forgetting th= at nowadays because the crazy/nutty things I was saying then turned into conventional wisdom. Someday it will probably grow dim even in *my* mind how much sweat it took for me to accomplish that. But it hasn't yet. > That sounds more like Ubuntu's goals than Fedora. Fedora is intended to be > a testing ground for doing cool and exciting things with free software. In > the Ubuntu case you are making some interesting arguments, but Fedora isn= 't > intended to be Mum's new desktop, cool if it works out that way but its > not the design spec. OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a distro that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============7307702790143911376==-- From rowan at stasis.org Wed Mar 29 00:27:53 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3560756556659684339==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rowan Kerr To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 00:27:42 -0500 Message-ID: <442A1ACE.6050901@stasis.org> In-Reply-To: 20060329010235.GA3395@thyrsus.com --===============3560756556659684339== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include > world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a distro > that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. This is what I have been concerned about for a while now. It looks like = the next commercial version of Suse will have all kinds of media support = through RealPlayer instead of the FOSS-only HelixPlayer. What will the = next version of RHEL provide? Of course, shelling out for a RHEL license doesn't make sense to me, = because I don't need the support but I would be willing to purchase RPMs = to give me legal media support on Fedora. (MP3, MPEG2/DVD, MPEG4). -Rowan --===============3560756556659684339==-- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 29 00:45:58 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0562831769624790953==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rahul Sundaram To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:15:58 +0530 Message-ID: <1143611158.3802.605.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 442A1ACE.6050901@stasis.org --===============0562831769624790953== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 00:27 -0500, Rowan Kerr wrote: > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include > > world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a dis= tro > > that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. Now when does including mp3 decoders in Fedora equate to world desktop domination by Red Hat or idealism? You have every reason to stutter there being a open source evangelist - perceived or otherwise. = > = > This is what I have been concerned about for a while now. It looks like = > the next commercial version of Suse will have all kinds of media support = > through RealPlayer instead of the FOSS-only HelixPlayer. What will the = > next version of RHEL provide? Thats a irrelevant discussion for Fedora-devel list really. Rahul --===============0562831769624790953==-- From perbj at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 29 00:49:11 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5511640480982781304==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Per Bjornsson To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 21:49:05 -0800 Message-ID: <1143611346.2249.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: 442A1ACE.6050901@stasis.org --===============5511640480982781304== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 00:27 -0500, Rowan Kerr wrote: > This is what I have been concerned about for a while now. It looks like = > the next commercial version of Suse will have all kinds of media support = > through RealPlayer instead of the FOSS-only HelixPlayer. What will the = > next version of RHEL provide? Likely RealPlayer, on a separate proprietary-apps-not-really-in-the-distro disk, as they have done before. > Of course, shelling out for a RHEL license doesn't make sense to me, = > because I don't need the support but I would be willing to purchase RPMs = > to give me legal media support on Fedora. (MP3, MPEG2/DVD, MPEG4). Well, nothing prevents you from installing RealPlayer if that's what you want, you can download it from Real... /Per --===============5511640480982781304==-- From rowan at stasis.org Wed Mar 29 01:22:02 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3565535963968274415==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rowan Kerr To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 01:21:53 -0500 Message-ID: <442A2781.4030501@stasis.org> In-Reply-To: 1143611346.2249.9.camel@localhost.localdomain --===============3565535963968274415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Per Bjornsson wrote: > Well, nothing prevents you from installing RealPlayer if that's what you > want, you can download it from Real True, although I'd prefer something that plugged in to gstreamer. But as Rahul mentioned, this is pretty OT for the Fedora list and really = an issue that should be put to the commercial distro vendors. :) For the record, I think Fedora's policy is the correct one, although it = can be frustrating at times. --===============3565535963968274415==-- From jkeating at j2solutions.net Wed Mar 29 01:25:24 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4206512033629029475==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jesse Keating To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 22:25:26 -0800 Message-ID: <1143613526.3752.139.camel@yoda.loki.me> In-Reply-To: 442A2781.4030501@stasis.org --===============4206512033629029475== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 01:21 -0500, Rowan Kerr wrote: > True, although I'd prefer something that plugged in to gstreamer. Look at Fluendo. -- = Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) --===============4206512033629029475== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjEgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFS2loVzR2MkhMdkU3MU5VUkF0NkdBS0NYejMvK0Z1R3BoWVZ1THNH VFM0c1dXTDVYd2dDZ25oR3oKS0U4R25RVEd5aFgzTGJReUs3a3pxRlk9Cj1IWkF4Ci0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============4206512033629029475==-- From uraeus at gnome.org Wed Mar 29 04:53:15 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5122154522647298184==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 11:59:41 +0200 Message-ID: <1143626381.2277.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: 44296E4C.5030808@adslpipe.co.uk --===============5122154522647298184== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 18:11 +0100, Andy Burns wrote: > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > = > > I don't see that. > = > At the bottom of http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html > it's not clear if the minimum royalty is only applicable when paying = > "per unit" or not. > = > > No, there's a crucial distinction. Consumers think they should get thi= s = > > capability bundled with their OS, not have to pay extra after the sale. > = > But the price from Fluendo's shop is =E2=82=AC0.00 per plugin, ithough t = would = > be better if it were able to be distributed as part of the O/S It is, we are offering distributors a no-cost redistribution contract for our plugin. The problem is that even if the source code is available under a MIT license the resulting binary is not GPL compatible, and arguably not free software no matter what license the underlaying code has. Due to this distributions with a clear free software stance, like Fedora, has opted to not include it so far. Be also aware that the cost of including non-free codecs in the distribution is that any GPL application able to use them will have = to go out. This means that as soon as this codec goes in, any open-source KDE multimedia playback application goes out, and on the GNOME side only Totem, Banshee and Jamboree is currently licensed in a way that allows them to stay. (Applications not able to use the non-free codec can stay of course, but I assume that if proprietary codec support is included you want to steer users in the direction of the apps having this support by only including such by default). = Be also aware that mp3 is the only patented codec which is available under terms that make a setup like this even feasible in some form. So even if mp3 support was included I doubt it would provide Eric will full satisfaction. No other major codec patents is available under a pay-once license instead they are available under licenses which quickly take them up to around 1 million USD a year (per codec). Also in regards to mp3 the pay-once license, it only covers desktop decoding usage. It do not cover use on any form of embedded device or encoding (both with costs 2.50 per unit with no annual price cap). Due to these limitations the implementation can not be under the LGPL or the GPL (which takes Eric's lame example out of the picture). So to answer Eric, at Fluendo we are working with distributions trying to figure out how to package/distribute codecs in a way that make it as transparent as possible for the user. But this is a hard process both in technical terms and legal sense as all these codec patents are available under different terms including API restrictions, branding requirements, platform allowed supported, use case limitations and so on. Finding a way that allows combining these with free software without abandoning the principles of trying to keep as much or even all the software open source is hard and takes time both to sort through the legal barriers, but also implementing systems that are able to solve the technical problems arising due to the legal restrictions. I think it is unfair to the major distributions to claim they are not caring about this issue. They are and they know very well that it is an issue causing pain for their users. But I think they deserve credit for trying to approach the issue in a manner that the eventual introduction of such codecs etc., will be one where it also serves as a pathway to help migrate more people over to free codecs. = Red Hat for instance recently hired Monty from the Xiph.org project to help improve the performance and quality of the xiph.org codecs and also move general multimedia support in Red Hat and Fedora forward. And Novell has been writing Banshee under the MIT license among other things in order to be able to provide a music player that can be bundled with non-free codecs. So things are happening and we just have to accept that Rome wasn't built in a day. = Christian --===============5122154522647298184==-- From jdesbonnet at gmail.com Wed Mar 29 06:36:06 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6874545171755791833==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Joe Desbonnet To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:35:58 +0100 Message-ID: <1cef3e950603290335s58b4b6dfp21cab300f8c247dc@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 1143611158.3802.605.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com --===============6874545171755791833== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is not indended as a practical solution or idea (the thought occured to me after a morning espresso fix): Imagine a small computing device (USB powered memory stick form factor), containing a processor and memory just powerful enough to transcode proprietary, patent encumbered media formats into non-patent encumbered format (note: often transcoding does not require the CPU resources of a complete decode). The device contains proprietary (but flashable) firmware with technology licenced from the various rights holders. From a licencing standpoint it's just like a consumer DVD player but without all the hardware -- the patent encumbered firmware is confined to the smallest possible computing space. :-) Joe. On 3/29/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Wed, 2006-03-29 at 00:27 -0500, Rowan Kerr wrote: > > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include > > > world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a d= istro > > > that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. > > Now when does including mp3 decoders in Fedora equate to world desktop > domination by Red Hat or idealism? You have every reason to stutter > there being a open source evangelist - perceived or otherwise. > > > > > This is what I have been concerned about for a while now. It looks like > > the next commercial version of Suse will have all kinds of media support > > through RealPlayer instead of the FOSS-only HelixPlayer. What will the > > next version of RHEL provide? > > Thats a irrelevant discussion for Fedora-devel list really. > > > Rahul > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list(a)redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > --===============6874545171755791833==-- From cmadams at hiwaay.net Wed Mar 29 09:23:46 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8304637494271943678==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Adams To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:23:38 -0600 Message-ID: <20060329142338.GA1376783@hiwaay.net> In-Reply-To: 442A1ACE.6050901@stasis.org --===============8304637494271943678== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once upon a time, Rowan Kerr said: > This is what I have been concerned about for a while now. It looks like = > the next commercial version of Suse will have all kinds of media support = > through RealPlayer instead of the FOSS-only HelixPlayer. What will the = > next version of RHEL provide? I don't know what the next version of RHEL will provide, but as I already said, the most recent version (and IIRC the version before that) included RealPlayer, Acrobat Reader, Flash, and Java. Even the old boxed Red Hat Linux included many of those things; they just weren't included in the download version (due to licensing restrictions). -- = Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. --===============8304637494271943678==-- From cmadams at hiwaay.net Wed Mar 29 09:27:02 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7096744693025455219==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Adams To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:26:59 -0600 Message-ID: <20060329142659.GB1376783@hiwaay.net> In-Reply-To: 20060329010235.GA3395@thyrsus.com --===============7096744693025455219== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once upon a time, Eric S. Raymond said: > OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include > world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a distro > that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. If they'd "lost [their] idealism", they might include some of the things you are complaining about. You want it both ways, and you can't have that. If you think MP3, Flash, and Java are the missing "killer apps" to make Fedora Core the desktop for world domination, why don't you take Fedora Core, and those bits (getting licenses as needed), and release your own "Raymond Linux" distribution? Since everything in Fedora Core is fully redistributable, you are free to do that. -- = Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. --===============7096744693025455219==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Wed Mar 29 09:52:37 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5095589514337304920==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 09:55:24 -0500 Message-ID: <20060329145524.GB10714@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20060329142659.GB1376783@hiwaay.net --===============5095589514337304920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Adams : > If you think MP3, Flash, and Java are the missing "killer apps" to make > Fedora Core the desktop for world domination, why don't you take Fedora > Core, and those bits (getting licenses as needed), and release your own > "Raymond Linux" distribution? Since everything in Fedora Core is fully > redistributable, you are free to do that. I don't have the money or the lawyers to pull it off. This sort of thing is why we have commercial partners with office buidings. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============5095589514337304920==-- From andy at warmcat.com Wed Mar 29 11:03:00 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6495762294640183035==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:02:40 +0100 Message-ID: <442AAFA0.1010608@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060329145524.GB10714@thyrsus.com --===============6495762294640183035== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> If you think MP3, Flash, and Java are the missing "killer apps" to make >> Fedora Core the desktop for world domination, why don't you take Fedora >> Core, and those bits (getting licenses as needed), and release your own >> "Raymond Linux" distribution? Since everything in Fedora Core is fully >> redistributable, you are free to do that. > = > I don't have the money or the lawyers to pull it off. This sort of thing > is why we have commercial partners with office buidings. If you look a bit further in that direction you'll see you're asking = RHAT shareholders to take risks you aren't willing to take yourself. This stuff is Free software, "we" don't have "commercial partners" as if = it was proprietary and owned by "us" and it is a strategic decision for = some big boss to make. Unless the license forbids it companies are = welcome the same as individuals to use and copy around the code. = Thereby nobody, no matter who, is able to stand beside a big switch that = decides if "commercial partners" are to be allowed today or not. Only = the individuals choosing their project license can control it. -Andy --===============6495762294640183035== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzI5 MTYwMjQwWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUhiNPJfECTz/a8ggjBcaBRc87flcwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAeSWs+gcwjI3aE0lp2QGT3NY2hF9IzYiZxsTLh4/13cENG772YFNRMbukskXR 7luGvhhOurliX8q8d0w9fnGKIb78MO8c3BmCLSKouSRVxu0/ZTFgk+784LEXAgvY1Bl5LW48kVZA IZXce8BNbBEOGVMxvTvXVq7KdpVXfmK18rhGUY0y0EYwKJj1eyiDtR9jPVyAmGRGmxD6pwkgn93m Oq2XcLMMbHnzP7xTok1xxVD7DCXMw0BvRPdp4kXr9/NDMsqzv6h3asty8BhkxnZExN7oz89W8A8E EktL1+LR7w4WvfxZrnBZqu1iz+IMjX7yMVBqH0tk9NSXdJo1trDo1QAAAAAAAA== --===============6495762294640183035==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed Mar 29 13:54:06 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3527325604908958577==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 20:53:16 +0200 Message-ID: <1143658399.2792.31.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: 20060329010235.GA3395@thyrsus.com --===============3527325604908958577== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le mardi 28 mars 2006 =C3=A0 20:02 -0500, Eric S. Raymond a =C3=A9crit : > Alan Cox : > > That sounds more like Ubuntu's goals than Fedora. Fedora is intended to= be > > a testing ground for doing cool and exciting things with free software.= In > > the Ubuntu case you are making some interesting arguments, but Fedora i= sn't > > intended to be Mum's new desktop, cool if it works out that way but its > > not the design spec. > = > OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include > world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a distro > that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. The Fedora way is to create the best FOSS-only system, in the hope that one day (soon) the advantages of not bundling closed code (no EULAs, DRMs, constants adds and other annoyware, unified package system, fully tweakable and vendor-independent OS) outweight the problems of not including closed code. Given that most closed systems spend their time playing with their users goodwill limits, it's not as far-fetched a goal as it may seem. -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============3527325604908958577== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlFWUVBQkVDQUFZRkFrUXExNXdBQ2drUUkyYlZLRHNwOGczR25nQ2VLUlZKbTdU V1l6NWd4cnlLY3ZnKzhDc2UKM05RQW9QUmVKTGY4Wkk1NHNydzhYNkk4N3FhL2lFZkMKPS9Kd3oK LS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCg== --===============3527325604908958577==-- From pjones at redhat.com Wed Mar 29 14:05:11 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4679977893929969535==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Peter Jones To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Fedora's way forward Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:05:04 -0500 Message-ID: <1143659104.18075.24.camel@vroomfondel.internal.datastacks.com> In-Reply-To: 20060329010235.GA3395@thyrsus.com --===============4679977893929969535== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 20:02 -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > OK. So the next question is, do *Red Hat's* goals no longer include > world desktop domination? Because if that's true, I need to find a distro > that hasn't ... er ... lost its idealism. I don't think "world domination" has ever been our strategy or goal. We usually go for attainable goals like "make $FOO work", "be better at $FEATURE than $COMPETITOR" and "make our users' lives less painful than they were with the last release". If the desire for world domination is your criteria, then you're right, Fedora is not the distro you're looking for. Have fun searching for a new distro of which the developers share that mindset. -- = Peter --===============4679977893929969535==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Thu Mar 30 16:59:47 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2562554381715726721==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 16:59:34 -0500 Message-ID: <20060330215934.GE14444@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442AAFA0.1010608@warmcat.com --===============2562554381715726721== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > >I don't have the money or the lawyers to pull it off. This sort of thing > >is why we have commercial partners with office buidings. > = > If you look a bit further in that direction you'll see you're asking = > RHAT shareholders to take risks you aren't willing to take yourself. Yes, I am. It's a business decision. Do they want significant desktop mark= et share? If so, they have to do this thing. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============2562554381715726721==-- From andy at warmcat.com Fri Mar 31 03:21:21 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9042739358808856246==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 09:20:57 +0100 Message-ID: <442CE669.2020107@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060330215934.GE14444@thyrsus.com --===============9042739358808856246== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Green : >>> I don't have the money or the lawyers to pull it off. This sort of thi= ng >>> is why we have commercial partners with office buidings. >> If you look a bit further in that direction you'll see you're asking = >> RHAT shareholders to take risks you aren't willing to take yourself. > = > Yes, I am. It's a business decision. Do they want significant desktop ma= rket > share? If so, they have to do this thing. $THIS_THING is a moving target. Shortly movie download stores with = encrypted HDTV files that require a signed Windows driver stack backed = by TPM will set the bar for you if you define what is needed as = "whatever Windows can do". And then if you go there you'll find patent = attacks and various ugly laws paid for by the movie studios to really = cream you. Then there's this: http://www.no-lobbyists-as-such.com/florian-mueller-blog/ballmer-linux/ For Ballmer Linux is synonymous with RHAT and NOVL. I think what to do = about these proprietary and encumbered formats is indeed a 'business = decision' for RHAT and they seem to be on top of it. -Andy --===============9042739358808856246== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzMx MDgyMDU3WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUHDyyQBlsehpyfEXjHSNuxKl7htMwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAvw4cC6NgSM4Wwvrp6DVQXsC8YlWTgv1sfnE9A4vw2CaCF+INee9gknHNWg+w 2qocFc0p6ZNoQsl76EWYUra5/fI2mkvVJIbjChY5XWq1bX4V1NpqBdsiRn0NHaDA8Ly5k5HfS6Cz kJVRzNmmI8r8oNJkSml1EHJGyncC7cDb/UW7L8ZF7jmBw2QMJk3gw4PVqqj3cEIWHKJsukkvhUyX 2dZGtSDC1D07rLaCd+0F+qxHii8bAwxa4+2MghZeFlV9q4NYgMrVG0x9DTrbMg65rfeKBiY7gL8m 7knCERqXRhtnG/eItmFyNlCUXBfxa99cZ2lPrgrQqtMWicUh1id2BgAAAAAAAA== --===============9042739358808856246==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Fri Mar 31 03:51:48 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0175197856398275526==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:51:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331085130.GB19993@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442CE669.2020107@warmcat.com --===============0175197856398275526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > >Yes, I am. It's a business decision. Do they want significant desktop = > >market share? If so, they have to do this thing. > = > $THIS_THING is a moving target. = Yes. it certainly is. In a few years, once we solve this problem, I expect to be back here trying to kick certain people out of their dogmatic slumbers with respect to the *next* market-share blocker. > Shortly movie download stores with = > encrypted HDTV files that require a signed Windows driver stack backed = > by TPM will set the bar for you if you define what is needed as = > "whatever Windows can do". No, I define it as "what nontechnical users will consider us useless wankers if we don't do". = Which doesn't include TPM, because users haven't accepted that devil's bargain yet. If the history of DivX and other similar efforts is a guide, they won't. In truth, I think we can get away with not supporting WMA. But no MP3 is a complete laugh-at-those-idiots showstopper. QuickTime is somewhere in the middle. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============0175197856398275526==-- From andy at warmcat.com Fri Mar 31 04:25:32 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0798291274191529056==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:25:15 +0100 Message-ID: <442CF57B.9000001@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060331085130.GB19993@thyrsus.com --===============0798291274191529056== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Green : >>> Yes, I am. It's a business decision. Do they want significant desktop = >>> market share? If so, they have to do this thing. >> $THIS_THING is a moving target. = > = > Yes. it certainly is. In a few years, once we solve this problem, I > expect to be back here trying to kick certain people out of their > dogmatic slumbers with respect to the *next* market-share blocker. To be fair, you seem to want to replace the existing "Free and safe" = dogma with "do whatever it takes not to look like a useless wanker" = dogma. The existing one seems to have better metrics for assessing = compliance, less danger and greater longer-term stability. >> Shortly movie download stores with = >> encrypted HDTV files that require a signed Windows driver stack backed = >> by TPM will set the bar for you if you define what is needed as = >> "whatever Windows can do". > = > No, I define it as "what nontechnical users will consider us useless > wankers if we don't do". = They will want their encrypted Blu-ray and HD-DVD. They already want = their DVD now and that has to come by a dangerous contraband. > Which doesn't include TPM, because users haven't accepted that devil's > bargain yet. If the history of DivX and other similar efforts is a > guide, they won't. DivX (sans ;-) ) added nothing over a regular DVD. The wave of HD media = will I believe see regular Joes accepting serious compromises to have = it, because it is viscerally compelling. > In truth, I think we can get away with not supporting WMA. But no MP3 > is a complete laugh-at-those-idiots showstopper. = MP3 decode and Flash look like they are safely (ie, no patent attack = invited) possible with an end-user download. On WMA, a lot of low-cost = music stores are selling only encrypted WMA, eg http://www.tescodownloads.com/ ''You will need Windows 98 Second Edition or above Windows Media Player 9 or above If using a digital music player, one that supports Windows Media files = with Digital Rights Management encryption (DRM 9 or above) Note This service is not compatible with Apple iPod'' so lacking WMA is a dealbreaker for such folks. > QuickTime is somewhere in the middle. For people who got to trailers.apple.com Quicktime is a dealbreaker, not = in the middle. This just illustrates how fuzzy it is to define the distro on a "wanker = perception" scale rather than objective criteria. Just like real life, = someone somewhere will always think you are a useless wanker. Better to = live your life according to your own principles than attempt to please = everybody and end up miserable. FWIW Linux is creeping in at the bottom end despite its supposed lacks. = This is a relatively new phenomena: http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=3Dc2hvd19wcm9kdWN= 0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=3D89079 -Andy --===============0798291274191529056== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzMx MDkyNTE1WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUFNWd+n9OiIefnc6Wr8Happm3ZAYwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAEfoGlXC8lylNb/GlgDmmjMBfM2Ov57+o6HT+6mPbjdd/jcunfk2IRDRA68nF HmEn0EU7VRYqt6QKrNll7FOy8DfOxpXhXuQ+hSv+Hww84fZX2ULoh4vBzfaNKw7SqchUCljbZO6i ifVNj8aSMlGo3BzpdEfWPXLhXKrBAWp5e9ZPYvwKM2cPyApTAFXKk7ST0R1NyU+e2UoLDj2/SqWR KrAvMtsai0hWiFW4TlgJwIoLVrpp52UVH5kf58AEUCEc8YxluotLT3v2JB5SIIrOs2XkZdz2ofx1 xzD+KbtAA710eZJSoqh6paDrK3oCrnt8iT88Kqqi4R4v7t6Pl4MTIgAAAAAAAA== --===============0798291274191529056==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Fri Mar 31 05:35:52 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8039280888122282507==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:35:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331103536.GA21302@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442CF57B.9000001@warmcat.com --===============8039280888122282507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > The existing one seems to have better metrics for assessing = > compliance, less danger and greater longer-term stability. Well, maybe. Unless the consequence is that we never reach the mass market at all, in which case Very Bad Things are likely to happen down the road. Like, no video cards we can actually use at above VESA resolution. > They will want their encrypted Blu-ray and HD-DVD. = We don't know that yet. A ruinous format war that turns consumers = off both still looks like a fairly likely outcome. > They already want = > their DVD now and that has to come by a dangerous contraband. True. I don't know how to solve that problem. = > MP3 decode and Flash look like they are safely (ie, no patent attack = > invited) possible with an end-user download. Yes. > so lacking WMA is a dealbreaker for such folks. How many of them do you think there are, as percentage of the population? = > >QuickTime is somewhere in the middle. > = > For people who got to trailers.apple.com Quicktime is a dealbreaker, not = > in the middle. There can't be a lot of those, as Windows doesn't do QuickTime (at = least it didn't last I checked). That holds the damage down to 5% or so. > This just illustrates how fuzzy it is to define the distro on a "wanker = > perception" scale rather than objective criteria. Still, the consequences of failure to do so would be a serious problem in the middle- to long term. If we can at least hold the number of nontechie users who find Linux useless down to 1 in 10 or so we can avoid this. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============8039280888122282507==-- From paul at city-fan.org Fri Mar 31 05:43:55 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4492355569183084838==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Paul Howarth To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 11:43:47 +0100 Message-ID: <442D07E3.9040404@city-fan.org> In-Reply-To: 20060331103536.GA21302@thyrsus.com --===============4492355569183084838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: >>> QuickTime is somewhere in the middle. >> For people who got to trailers.apple.com Quicktime is a dealbreaker, not = >> in the middle. > = > There can't be a lot of those, as Windows doesn't do QuickTime (at = > least it didn't last I checked). That holds the damage down to 5% or so. Windows has done QuickTime for as long as I can remember (many, many years): http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/win.html Paul. --===============4492355569183084838==-- From andy at warmcat.com Fri Mar 31 06:17:32 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4431041992852928647==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:17:10 +0100 Message-ID: <442D0FB6.3080600@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060331103536.GA21302@thyrsus.com --===============4431041992852928647== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Green : >> The existing one seems to have better metrics for assessing = >> compliance, less danger and greater longer-term stability. > = > Well, maybe. Unless the consequence is that we never reach the mass > market at all, in which case Very Bad Things are likely to happen down > the road. Like, no video cards we can actually use at above VESA > resolution. I don't see any evidence for this for 2D. The problems all seem to be = to do with 3D acceleration hardware in the past, present, and presumably = in the future. And that in turn, like everything this thread touches, = seems to come down in the end to patents. >> They will want their encrypted Blu-ray and HD-DVD. = > = > We don't know that yet. A ruinous format war that turns consumers = > off both still looks like a fairly likely outcome. IMO it is too sexy to die, but who knows. >> They already want = >> their DVD now and that has to come by a dangerous contraband. > = > True. I don't know how to solve that problem. There is a licensed player for Linux that can be purchased, but this is = just another sign of what I refer to below. >> so lacking WMA is a dealbreaker for such folks. > = > How many of them do you think there are, as percentage > of the population? Fair and increasing amount. Both iTunes and the other licensed = traditional digital music download sites are sending out ONLY locked-up = content that demands ownership of a Windows or AAPL OS and a portable = playback device that was created by AAPL or pays license fees to MSFT. = Every time you hear about a digital download, like the 1 Billion sent = out from iTunes you're hearing about something that can't be played = under Linux without being cracked and potentially violating laws in the = US and Europe. (They are cracked, it is not a technical problem.) The = problem is that having invested in these bogodownloads they act as an = anchor to the existing OS, assuming the French can't save us. >>> QuickTime is somewhere in the middle. >> For people who got to trailers.apple.com Quicktime is a dealbreaker, not = >> in the middle. > = > There can't be a lot of those, as Windows doesn't do QuickTime (at = > least it didn't last I checked). That holds the damage down to 5% or so. As somebody else pointed out it does, but in case you meant 'out of the = box', then this serves as an illustration of the lure of content, since = stuff like HDTV res trailers at trailers.apple.com means Quicktime has = quite good penetration on Windows boxes, I found this perhaps slightly = dogdy breakdown for 2004 Macromedia=E2=80=99s Flash - 98% Viewpoint Media Player - 64.3%. (<-- possible dodginess) Shockwave - 58.1% Windows Media Player 9 - 57.5% RealNetworks RealPlayer - 46.5% Apple=E2=80=99s QuickTime - 43.1% http://www.danavan.net/weblog/archives/bye_bye_quicktime.html People who want that hot content like HDTV new movie trailers (and DVD = playback) won't be told they shouldn't have it for the reasons you = earlier deployed against telling people they shouldn't have mp3 -- and = we can't provide it due to patent licensing. This is why I said there = is no end to that path of trying to make everyone happy, and that by = defining winning as doing that, you can never win. The basic schism is that you can't have a Free OS under liberal license = that includes fundamentally proprietary, patent-protected technologies = in a freely redistributable form unless the patentholders allow it. = Patentholders like MSFT and AAPL have no motive to allow it, quite the = opposite. Patentholders like the DVD consortium are actively monetizing = their patents in the form of licenses and will call Security if you = suggest you get one for free that anyone can distribute and copy. RHAT = react to this fact by retrenching just behind the red line (as best they = can assess it) beyond the range of attack and grow the OS outside of = such patentholder influence as far as possible. >> This just illustrates how fuzzy it is to define the distro on a "wanker = >> perception" scale rather than objective criteria. > = > Still, the consequences of failure to do so would be a serious problem > in the middle- to long term. If we can at least hold the number of > nontechie users who find Linux useless down to 1 in 10 or so we can > avoid this. The is little chance of achieving a 90% proportion of really nontechie = users who even heard of Linux, let alone regard it as useful. Quite = possible 90% of such folks do not quite know what "windows" is. = However... Linux is hidden away in PVRs and so on that a lot of people = are using already. Nokia 770 is another example, I guess many users are = unaware they use Linux. Maybe one day soon 90% of people will be using = Linux daily just outside of the desktop-based paradigm, but they won't = know it or of it. -Andy --===============4431041992852928647== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzMx MTExNzEwWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUJL2LGrUFc5GF22o1ehcEjqREhqUwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAeUbyETqxJfVtTyftp7twyiH/xS6znFl6Yp4Y8zsxSGAiUEx1DYJIUt5k/EEb 3o1ycfuIg1V/4+oQz/w0aoc2IpFpMeXu8XYm79ZQmwBpYbC/NJnicIWNVz5C92YKyjtWlQKwWgc8 iAeKCz1CBS9DU3HRlr8mayjMxoYdZYTvZuoKzdVPu0V0eTG2LSloxd8pEwcg5NpBU1hhRPVgF9Qs gRDD5sp9u4Qc6owXHc+w3KGBX7Zp1pfU6igIJP0aF7QtadnQUaJXY3cXF0YiA8zku3I6yswnRiLq mSq3IXZJiSD/ezk4GX++SZxv4TJH7hmFgDf9WzToWzS0kiKMo27uDgAAAAAAAA== --===============4431041992852928647==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 31 06:38:13 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1019946261541553680==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:35:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060331085130.GB19993@thyrsus.com --===============1019946261541553680== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 03:51:30 -0500 "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: > > $THIS_THING is a moving target. = > = > Yes. it certainly is. In a few years, once we solve this problem, I > expect to be back here trying to kick certain people out of their > dogmatic slumbers with respect to the *next* market-share blocker. Don't see any evidence of dogmatic slumbering within Fedora. Just a realistic appraisal of what can be provided and what is appropriate to provide under the very clear objectives of the project. You seem to think your goals should be those of the project, but have given nothing more than a world domination pipe dream as a reason. There's a worthwhile and valuable group being served well by Fedora. Those that want or need proprietary solutions aren't stopped from = getting them, they're a simple download the same as is required on Windows in many cases. = There is simply no need to start the Fedora core project down that = slippery slope of providing or encouraging proprietary solutions. Sean --===============1019946261541553680==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Mar 31 06:45:11 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4042975998594381467==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:44:53 +0200 Message-ID: <46625.192.54.193.25.1143805493.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: 442D0FB6.3080600@warmcat.com --===============4042975998594381467== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le Ven 31 mars 2006 13:17, Andy Green a =C3=A9crit : > Eric S. Raymond wrote: >> Andy Green : >>> The existing one seems to have better metrics for assessing >>> compliance, less danger and greater longer-term stability. >> >> Well, maybe. Unless the consequence is that we never reach the mass >> market at all, in which case Very Bad Things are likely to happen down >> the road. Like, no video cards we can actually use at above VESA >> resolution. > > I don't see any evidence for this for 2D. The problems all seem to be > to do with 3D acceleration hardware in the past, present, and presumably > in the future. And that in turn, like everything this thread touches, > seems to come down in the end to patents. No they aren't all related to 3D. Right now the second DVI head of a radeon card (consumer, not pro card) is a paperweight, for 3D or 2D. That is, if you stick to open drivers (like me) So if you've got a desktop system with two TMDSes, you're out of luck. -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============4042975998594381467==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Fri Mar 31 06:46:55 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0223111750630356455==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 06:46:43 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331114643.GA22130@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442D0FB6.3080600@warmcat.com --===============0223111750630356455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > I don't see any evidence for this for 2D. The problems all seem to be = > to do with 3D acceleration hardware in the past, present, and presumably = > in the future. = If true, that would still a problem. The one guy I know who's a serious graphics maven says that the wave of the future is 3D texture maps for everything, including individual font glyphs. > And that in turn, like everything this thread touches, = > seems to come down in the end to patents. My graphics guy says that's true, but not in the way you might expect. He thinks the reason the graphics vendors are all doing locked = firmware is because they're all violating *each others'* patents and don't want to get found out... > Macromedia=E2=80=99s Flash - 98% > Viewpoint Media Player - 64.3%. (<-- possible dodginess) > Shockwave - 58.1% > Windows Media Player 9 - 57.5% > RealNetworks RealPlayer - 46.5% > Apple=E2=80=99s QuickTime - 43.1% RealNetworks we've got. Flash and shockwave we can get. I dunno what "Viewpoint Media Player" is. That leaves WMP9 (hopeless) = and QuickTime (possible). 57% of users locked out because of one format would be bad, but way better than where we are now. > This is why I said there = > is no end to that path of trying to make everyone happy, and that by = > defining winning as doing that, you can never win. Not absolutely, but once you know the percentages and costs you can pick a minimax. The goal of the game here isn't perfection, it's maximizing adoption rate. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============0223111750630356455==-- From andy at warmcat.com Fri Mar 31 08:19:55 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1096700178951525795==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:19:45 +0100 Message-ID: <442D2C71.7070809@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060331114643.GA22130@thyrsus.com --===============1096700178951525795== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Green : >> I don't see any evidence for this for 2D. The problems all seem to be = >> to do with 3D acceleration hardware in the past, present, and presumably = >> in the future. = > = > If true, that would still a problem. The one guy I know who's a serious > graphics maven says that the wave of the future is 3D texture maps for > everything, including individual font glyphs. As Nicholas says, all is not completely rosy in the 2D garden. But the = proposal I replied to was that for future graphics card we will be = unable to use resolutions greater than 'VESA', whatever that means since = you can get 1600x1200 in Vesa, in fact I think the table comes out of = the card's video BIOS and can support anything. It seems for normal 2D = the open source drivers are able to do a decent job but advanced stuff = can be a different matter. >> And that in turn, like everything this thread touches, = >> seems to come down in the end to patents. > = > My graphics guy says that's true, but not in the way you might > expect. He thinks the reason the graphics vendors are all doing locked = > firmware is because they're all violating *each others'* patents > and don't want to get found out... That is what I was referring to. Eric Blossom from Gnu Radio told me = this as a possible explanation for wlan driver secrecy as well. >> Macromedia=E2=80=99s Flash - 98% >> Viewpoint Media Player - 64.3%. (<-- possible dodginess) >> Shockwave - 58.1% >> Windows Media Player 9 - 57.5% >> RealNetworks RealPlayer - 46.5% >> Apple=E2=80=99s QuickTime - 43.1% > = > RealNetworks we've got. Flash and shockwave we can get. I dunno > what "Viewpoint Media Player" is. = It seems they may have funded the original survey :-) Hence the disclaimer. > That leaves WMP9 (hopeless) = > and QuickTime (possible). = Well let's not conflate the player app with the codecs. Quicktime for = example contains Sorensen and 30-odd other codecs: http://www.simnet.is/klipklap/quicktime/ Each of these will have its own patent story and people looking to get = their hands on RHAT's cash if RHAT give them the chance. WMP is just a = relatively lightweight pretty usermode app on top of a similar list of = codecs that come with it and Windows. You see mplayer go on unmolested = because it will not repay the attack as they are mainly individuals in = Eastern Europe AIUI. RHAT though have a large amount of cash, if they = step wrong an attack has a chance of a fat cash reward. Further, if = RHAT folks are not seen to protect their assets with due diligence, they = face a shareholder suit. Their care is very pragmatic indeed. > The goal of the game here isn't perfection, it's > maximizing adoption rate. I don't believe I saw that in the Fedora manifesto. Much as I loathe = MSFT personally, for some users they are the right answer as things = stand and Fedora is not. But things are slowly shifting and RHAT is one = of the engines inching things around. > Not absolutely, but once you know the percentages and costs you can > pick a minimax. = Well then you need to amend your earlier clarion call to arms to = 'looking as least like a useless wanker as we can given the reality for = some usage cases (MSFT or AAPL codecs, DVDs, HDTV media, Digital music = downloads in WMA or FairPlay) we are inescapably actually useless = wankers'. OR you can just not get into that game if you see you can't = win, and take the initiative by raising a different standard for people = to rally around and providing an alternative way: "If it ain't Free, = keep it". -Andy --===============1096700178951525795== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzMx MTMxOTQ1WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU/jqAs1aoDCKqNqVjNwjhVWV4pJkwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAq0Jh49LGHPVEwCZsZDVFpAoyGARK87glC2SG86vTG8iqcSYCBAooyjZ8wTtW ALG5VVM59JUhoJ/8IRnlm95l4NoEQK0z9EhmUyMEiACP86Bg2jvhxEaCJ6Y81Iw+8pVV6SxJb4HX V2LuyM51Sr7ODW/WmqBwkLwcc0i4hLkpt4e/+YldMe3vSKjjFcwCUSgvx5jSD2OKkvWSRZsM2TIY uaDjhe3kvLsaquRD3kHj9s03WjVF4NW9ZS6N9HywAV3A/BE70xYHGVprrx2onFK5PhUuCwu0fF7L g8VE6mIeJ9RMuvt/j4tBwZ0+ETX5LseUyquCTHfKksZf+5yXC2kVwQAAAAAAAA== --===============1096700178951525795==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Fri Mar 31 12:30:38 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1845482148601574718==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:30:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331173030.GB24571@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442D2C71.7070809@warmcat.com --===============1845482148601574718== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > That is what I was referring to. Eric Blossom from Gnu Radio told me = > this as a possible explanation for wlan driver secrecy as well. Well, there's a larger issue with variable driver wattage there... = > Well let's not conflate the player app with the codecs. Quicktime for = > example contains Sorensen and 30-odd other codecs: > = > http://www.simnet.is/klipklap/quicktime/ Yeah, I know. But in practice "Quicktime" support pretty much reduces = to "Sorensen video codec support". = > Each of these will have its own patent story and people looking to get = > their hands on RHAT's cash if RHAT give them the chance. This is no different than any normal negotiating situtation. Other OS vendors deal with it all the time. > > The goal of the game here isn't perfection, it's > > maximizing adoption rate. > = > I don't believe I saw that in the Fedora manifesto. = No, you didn't. That mean I'm somehow not allowed to argue that = the manifesto should change? I'm not doing this for my health, Andy. Linux is in a fluid competitive situation with a lot of powerful enemies. It's grow or die. I'm trying to avoid "die". -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============1845482148601574718==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 31 12:56:07 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3153205153160560460==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:53:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060331173030.GB24571@thyrsus.com --===============3153205153160560460== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:30:30 -0500 "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: > > I don't believe I saw that in the Fedora manifesto. = > = > No, you didn't. That mean I'm somehow not allowed to argue that = > the manifesto should change? > = > I'm not doing this for my health, Andy. Linux is in a fluid competitive > situation with a lot of powerful enemies. It's grow or die. I'm trying > to avoid "die". But you're making some rather unsupportable assumptions about whether the changes you desire will really lead to the outcome you hope for. You've also made grand statements about world domination, or desktop market share that you must know yourself are laughable at best. You've refused to acknowledge that there are other alternatives in the Linux landscape already doing the exact same thing you want Fedora to do. And you've refused to articulate why every = distribution must follow this same course of action. Linux already has healthy choice for everyone. You're trying to take choice away from people. You're trying to take the choice of having an open source only distribution away from the people that would choose it. Please just go promote one of the other distributions that already embraces your vision, there is no reason to try to convert Fedora. Sean --===============3153205153160560460==-- From andy at warmcat.com Fri Mar 31 14:19:25 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5219748174106501510==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 20:19:13 +0100 Message-ID: <442D80B1.20902@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060331173030.GB24571@thyrsus.com --===============5219748174106501510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Green : >> That is what I was referring to. Eric Blossom from Gnu Radio told me = >> this as a possible explanation for wlan driver secrecy as well. > = > Well, there's a larger issue with variable driver wattage there... This is OT but I believe that is simply a figleaf. The other figleaf is = that the PLL registers would be exposed to allow it to function at = disallowed frequencies. If true and is truly a problem then this is a = flaw in the hardware design, since any kernel code can poke these = registers. Simply design the hardware to have strapped pins to define = the legal power and frequency range for the region and the problem is gone. > Yeah, I know. But in practice "Quicktime" support pretty much reduces = > to "Sorensen video codec support". Not so, eg, http://www.apple.com/quicktime/technologies/h264/faq.html Also the necessary audio codecs. >> Each of these will have its own patent story and people looking to get = >> their hands on RHAT's cash if RHAT give them the chance. > = > This is no different than any normal negotiating situtation. Other OS > vendors deal with it all the time. "Other OS vendors" have a revenue stream to give a cut of in the form of = a patent license royalty. Not quite sure what you are expecting RHAT to = do about that wrt Fedora. >>> The goal of the game here isn't perfection, it's >>> maximizing adoption rate. >> I don't believe I saw that in the Fedora manifesto. = > = > No, you didn't. That mean I'm somehow not allowed to argue that = > the manifesto should change? Misrepresenting the actual goals of the project with your personal = preference as to what they should be is not arguing for change, it is = trying to bamboozle people. > I'm not doing this for my health, Andy. Linux is in a fluid competitive > situation with a lot of powerful enemies. It's grow or die. I'm trying > to avoid "die". I don't see a single reason to accept your dramatic characterizations as = accurate. Have a nice evening. -Andy --===============5219748174106501510== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwMzMx MTkxOTEzWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUfn6/iSFU0SHDQNuFjCUWO2ZiThQwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAniQOuiIRQGw9JwJ4Eu2L/8NBpR8ImfnJ1SJgTRg0SI82LbGCudosxqI9ogkk ADxXo/DWd/VkV/e/KTmmH3libTflGzx7duEZYV91agkHrae/KAE/rUcdoBn5dqeN+cd80M+5LNvC GHHUsLp4gXB6UKY++aOrxtEnCDFYWSh8NFFDTbeYR8rf6pTpEcsg9/qK17AWc+SzcbuHfL50BmC9 yje6jJ/CGeGytLTTBwGMYY9OLAkIqB8/FB9xszrpJHfSXXt3dbN/AtXjmoq5gmfYqUBj/M9nzu1o UWKiQkAs1wrvi9VVulxrQ52d60Gs0Gc/HanxnTwOx51w9MgOzrqgkwAAAAAAAA== --===============5219748174106501510==-- From avi at unix.sh Fri Mar 31 14:32:34 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0575142015263452613==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Avi Alkalay To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:32:04 -0300 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 442D80B1.20902@warmcat.com --===============0575142015263452613== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/31/06, Andy Green wrote: > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > I'm not doing this for my health, Andy. Linux is in a fluid competitive > > situation with a lot of powerful enemies. It's grow or die. I'm trying > > to avoid "die". > > I don't see a single reason to accept your dramatic characterizations as > accurate. To help Eric fine tune his accuracy, I have to say that I work in a global well known IT company, on Linux solutions sales. We fight everyday for Linux not to die in the commercial world, because of this annoying "missing packages". On the commercial desktop space this is specially annoying. This is so ridiculous that you still can find Linux sales people making Linux presentations on Linux events using MS PowerPoint. Just because to use Linux isn't that straight forward as Andy may think. I believe that too much religion in our OSS world doesn't help much. Exactly as real religions, it makes its followers a bit blind to see whats really happening out there. So I think Eric is pretty accurate in its statement. Thank you, Avi --===============0575142015263452613==-- From billcrawford1970 at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 14:43:54 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2846619651313469580==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bill Crawford To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 20:43:35 +0100 Message-ID: <200603312043.36178.billcrawford1970@googlemail.com> In-Reply-To: 20060331085130.GB19993@thyrsus.com --===============2846619651313469580== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday 31 March 2006 09:51, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > In truth, I think we can get away with not supporting WMA. But no MP3 > is a complete laugh-at-those-idiots showstopper. QuickTime is > somewhere in the middle. I'd actually like to disagree. Most of my friends (who are very nontechnic= al = on the whole, though "edjicated") use WMA for download onto memory sticks a= nd = mp3 players; and I can only easily listen if I have wma support. The positive point to make is this: a friend came over last weekend with a= 1G = mp3 player in hand. I was able to stick it in an unused USB port (on the ba= ck = of the machine alas; I'm sooo behind the times) and access the tracks in = about 3 seconds using amaroK. Simple as that. She was able to quite happily = navigate track lists and play songs without a whimper. Not once was there a = single comment about the "odd" desktop. So, "Linux" (in this case: KDE + X.org + GNU + LInux kernel) *is* now usab= le = and functional. I consider it better, for most use, than the last Windows = desktop I tried. I believe that issue - the "not ready for prime time" can = be = finally buried. That said: agreed on the MP3 support. But it is unlikely to go in FC befor= e = the patent runs out. --===============2846619651313469580==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Fri Mar 31 14:44:14 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2072772622819821397==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:43:59 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331194359.GB25535@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442D80B1.20902@warmcat.com --===============2072772622819821397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > "Other OS vendors" have a revenue stream to give a cut of in the form of = > a patent license royalty. Not quite sure what you are expecting RHAT to = > do about that wrt Fedora. You're telling me RHEL isn't making money? = > Misrepresenting the actual goals of the project with your personal = > preference as to what they should be is not arguing for change, it is = > trying to bamboozle people. No misrepresentation here. I've laid out the logic very clearly -- = Red Hat has a business decision to make about whether it (still) wants the desktop and what it's prepared to do to get it. It ties into a larger issue about what the Linux community needs to do to thrive under competitive pressure, which *is* a question for Fedora. = > I don't see a single reason to accept your dramatic characterizations as = > accurate. Well, I've been right about this sort of thing before, and I've continued to pay attention. You're living in an industry significantly shaped by the fact that I got some key market analysis right and then addressed the implied problem, and a lot of VCs and CEOs and investment bankers listen *very* respectfully when I talk. This doesn't make me infallible, of course, but it does mean betting that I'm wrong this time is not something to do casually. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============2072772622819821397==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 31 14:45:09 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5371731771442032438==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:42:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: ed0efd310603311132o2592c4dfx5001854c560f2d36@mail.gmail.com --===============5371731771442032438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:32:04 -0300 "Avi Alkalay" wrote: > To help Eric fine tune his accuracy, I have to say that I work in a > global well known IT company, on Linux solutions sales. We fight > everyday for Linux not to die in the commercial world, because of this > annoying "missing packages". On the commercial desktop space this is > specially annoying. For sure, but Linux is not defined by Fedora. And Fedora is not tasked with the goal of the commercial desktop space. = Red Hat has a product designed for the commercial desktop space for = instance, as do several other major vendors. = > This is so ridiculous that you still can find Linux sales people > making Linux presentations on Linux events using MS PowerPoint. Just lol, sad. > because to use Linux isn't that straight forward as Andy may think. Can't speak for Andy, but i haven't heard anyone say that this is = all straight forward in the larger sense of Linux as a whole. > I believe that too much religion in our OSS world doesn't help much. > Exactly as real religions, it makes its followers a bit blind to see > whats really happening out there. Most people in this debate on the FOSS side have taken great pains to = stear clear of the usual religious arguments. For instance, nobody is arguing that everyone should use FOSS come hell or highwater. Nor has anyone tried to say that nobody should use the proprietary repositories on top of Fedora Core. Just that as well as respecting the needs of those users, we should ALSO respect the needs of the FOSS users. > So I think Eric is pretty accurate in its statement. The fundamental flaw in Eric's arguments come from equating Fedora with all of the Linux landscape and then following that up with the notion that therefore Fedora must do whatever is necessary to solve the problems he sees with Linux overall. Sean --===============5371731771442032438==-- From cmadams at hiwaay.net Fri Mar 31 14:48:07 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1939650665855996158==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Adams To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:47:56 -0600 Message-ID: <20060331194756.GC720325@hiwaay.net> In-Reply-To: 20060331194359.GB25535@thyrsus.com --===============1939650665855996158== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once upon a time, Eric S. Raymond said: > Andy Green : > > "Other OS vendors" have a revenue stream to give a cut of in the form o= f = > > a patent license royalty. Not quite sure what you are expecting RHAT t= o = > > do about that wrt Fedora. > = > You're telling me RHEL isn't making money? RHEL !=3D Fedora. If you wish to talk about RHEL, I suggest you move over to a more appropriate list, such as nahant-list (or talk to a RHEL sales rep). As previously noted, RHEL includes Acrobat Reader, Flash, Java, and RealPlayer. -- = Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. --===============1939650665855996158==-- From cmadams at hiwaay.net Fri Mar 31 14:50:29 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1412283604475660231==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Adams To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 13:50:21 -0600 Message-ID: <20060331195021.GD720325@hiwaay.net> In-Reply-To: ed0efd310603311132o2592c4dfx5001854c560f2d36@mail.gmail.com --===============1412283604475660231== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Once upon a time, Avi Alkalay said: > To help Eric fine tune his accuracy, I have to say that I work in a > global well known IT company, on Linux solutions sales. We fight > everyday for Linux not to die in the commercial world, because of this > annoying "missing packages". On the commercial desktop space this is > specially annoying. In the commercial desktop space, I would expect you would be using a commercially supported distribution. RHEL includes Acrobat, Flash, Java, and RealPlayer. Any other things you find missing should be noted with your sales rep. Alternately, if you are supporting Fedora as a commercial desktop, you must already be doing a significant amount of long-term support (since the Fedora "lifetime" is only 8-12 months). In that case, you can add the "missing packages" to your own custom distribution. -- = Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. --===============1412283604475660231==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 31 14:51:05 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1412937042393372767==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:48:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060331194359.GB25535@thyrsus.com --===============1412937042393372767== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:43:59 -0500 "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: > You're telling me RHEL isn't making money? Not from Fedora. > No misrepresentation here. I've laid out the logic very clearly -- = > Red Hat has a business decision to make about whether it (still) > wants the desktop and what it's prepared to do to get it. It ties > into a larger issue about what the Linux community needs to do to > thrive under competitive pressure, which *is* a question for Fedora. You do know that Red Hat has products designed specifically for the commercial desktop right? And Fedora isn't even a product sold by Red Hat. > Well, I've been right about this sort of thing before, and I've > continued to pay attention. You're living in an industry > significantly shaped by the fact that I got some key market analysis > right and then addressed the implied problem, and a lot of VCs and > CEOs and investment bankers listen *very* respectfully when I talk. > = > This doesn't make me infallible, of course, but it does mean betting > that I'm wrong this time is not something to do casually. Nobody is betting that you're wrong. There is absolutely no doubt you're correct that a pure open source Linux desktop can not compete directly with Windows. However, it's also quite likely that Linux + proprietary drivers and apps still can't compete in that space. Anyway, none of that has anything to do with Fedora. Sean --===============1412937042393372767==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Fri Mar 31 14:57:43 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1977975691367310892==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:57:30 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331195730.GC25535@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: ed0efd310603311132o2592c4dfx5001854c560f2d36@mail.gmail.com --===============1977975691367310892== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Avi Alkalay : > To help Eric fine tune his accuracy, I have to say that I work in a > global well known IT company, on Linux solutions sales. We fight > everyday for Linux not to die in the commercial world, because of this > annoying "missing packages". On the commercial desktop space this is > specially annoying. > = > This is so ridiculous that you still can find Linux sales people > making Linux presentations on Linux events using MS PowerPoint. Just > because to use Linux isn't that straight forward as Andy may think. > = > I believe that too much religion in our OSS world doesn't help much. > Exactly as real religions, it makes its followers a bit blind to see > whats really happening out there. > = > So I think Eric is pretty accurate in its statement. If this list weren't 99% populated by techies, you'd see hundreds of mails like this. = One of the things I make a special point of doing is keeping in touch with people who are in the trenches every day doing Linux conversions for SOHO customers. And kids, it's a whole 'nother world out there. Your average Linux developer is just *astonishingly* naive about what actual customers' priorities are and what drives technology adoption. I wish I had the luxury of such naivete. I wish we could fort up in our technical-specialist back-room niche, worship at the shrine of 100% undiluted free software, and not worry about what very powerful enemies will do if we don't outgrow their capacity to smother us. Alas, reality is not that kind. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============1977975691367310892==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 31 15:07:13 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8993873515022660208==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:04:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060331195730.GC25535@thyrsus.com --===============8993873515022660208== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:57:30 -0500 "Eric S. Raymond" wrote: > If this list weren't 99% populated by techies, you'd see hundreds of > mails like this. = You're right. And they'd hopefully understand the answer they got better than you're managing to process it. ;o) > One of the things I make a special point of doing is keeping in touch > with people who are in the trenches every day doing Linux conversions > for SOHO customers. And kids, it's a whole 'nother world out there. > Your average Linux developer is just *astonishingly* naive about what > actual customers' priorities are and what drives technology adoption. I'd assume that many people on this list work in the "trenches" just as much as you do. You're trying to say your opinion is more = informed than the people you're debating; that awfully presumptuous. > I wish I had the luxury of such naivete. I wish we could fort up in > our technical-specialist back-room niche, worship at the shrine of > 100% undiluted free software, and not worry about what very powerful > enemies will do if we don't outgrow their capacity to smother us. > = The people debating in this thread have given you lots of chances to notice that they're not disagreeing with you about many of your basic points. You're forced to assume their naive because you can't seem to come to terms with the points you're actually mistaken about. > Alas, reality is not that kind. There is plenty of oportunity in _reality_ to work on the issues that interest you. Nobody is arguing that your objectives are wrong, just your implementation. Sean --===============8993873515022660208==-- From davej at redhat.com Fri Mar 31 15:17:07 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1383394916255817769==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Jones To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:17:05 -0500 Message-ID: <20060331201705.GH4133@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 442D2C71.7070809@warmcat.com --===============1383394916255817769== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 31, 2006 at 02:19:45PM +0100, Andy Green wrote: > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > >Andy Green : > >>I don't see any evidence for this for 2D. The problems all seem to be = > >>to do with 3D acceleration hardware in the past, present, and presumab= ly = > >>in the future. = > > > >If true, that would still a problem. The one guy I know who's a serious > >graphics maven says that the wave of the future is 3D texture maps for > >everything, including individual font glyphs. > = > As Nicholas says, all is not completely rosy in the 2D garden. There are a number of other cards, where the situation is worse. Short of running their binary driver, the Matrox parhelia is a really expensive way to run the vesa driver for example. (The mga driver doesn't support anything newer than g550 iirc). Dave -- = http://www.codemonkey.org.uk --===============1383394916255817769==-- From i.pilcher at comcast.net Fri Mar 31 15:47:36 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9059676579187048430==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ian Pilcher To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:47:05 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060331201705.GH4133@redhat.com --===============9059676579187048430== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave Jones wrote: > There are a number of other cards, where the situation is worse. > Short of running their binary driver, the Matrox parhelia is > a really expensive way to run the vesa driver for example. > (The mga driver doesn't support anything newer than g550 iirc). So why is everybody so hell-bent on making basic desktop functionality dependent on 3D performance? -- = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Ian Pilcher i.pilcher(a)comcast.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --===============9059676579187048430==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Mar 31 16:10:42 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6939014198292948900==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 23:10:06 +0200 Message-ID: <1143839413.2561.57.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: 20060331195730.GC25535@thyrsus.com --===============6939014198292948900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le vendredi 31 mars 2006 =C3=A0 14:57 -0500, Eric S. Raymond a =C3=A9crit : > Avi Alkalay : > > To help Eric fine tune his accuracy, I have to say that I work in a > > global well known IT company, on Linux solutions sales. We fight > > everyday for Linux not to die in the commercial world, because of this > > annoying "missing packages". On the commercial desktop space this is > > specially annoying. > > = > > This is so ridiculous that you still can find Linux sales people > > making Linux presentations on Linux events using MS PowerPoint. Just > > because to use Linux isn't that straight forward as Andy may think. > > = > > I believe that too much religion in our OSS world doesn't help much. > > Exactly as real religions, it makes its followers a bit blind to see > > whats really happening out there. > > = > > So I think Eric is pretty accurate in its statement. > = > If this list weren't 99% populated by techies, you'd see hundreds of > mails like this. = In case you didn't know it a lot of techies work for dilbertian Actual Users which spend their time asking vehemently for specific features then changing their mind once the features are delivered. Filling the feature matrix users ask is nice. It'll get you some initial sales. And lots of former customers once they discover : 1. they don't really need all that stuff 2. you've spread so thin trying to do everything it all sort of works but none of it works well (also most of the features are not in your core competency perimeter so you couldn't have implemented them well even by focusing your resources) 3. the existing apps on which they based their initial feature request have been superseded by newer versions (or lost their market share to a radically different competitors), the latest IT infomercial reviews they've ingested promotes something else, and you must have misunderstood their requests the first time you asked. 4. if they had known it would be so bad (believed what you told them in the first place), they'd rather have it done your way (why don't you re-do the implementation for free now they've conceded your point?) User opinion no matter how strongly expressed has to be taken with a big grain of salt. Usually focusing your efforts on what you're good at is a better long-term strategy. (As Red Hat proved). Plan for your future, not your competitor present/past. FOSS may be bad at realplayer or flash or quicken or whatever, but it's good at localisation, interoperability, tabbed browsing, thin client stuff etc. If efforts had been poured in wine or trying to replicate exactly the windows 95 desktop experience we'd still be nowhere today. Microsoft is very careful to morph the GUI of its software every few years, so feature/cloning parity is a loser race. Every other bit of the windows desktop is irrelevant, as MS kills apps faster than we can duplicate them (sourceforge is littered with unfinished FOSS clones of extinct windows apps) And even if Fedora managed to be as bad as the competition : 1. it's not preinstalled on systems 2. no orchestrated media campaign will happen to brainwash users into thinking the most stupid misfeature is a brilliant idea (Tim Waugh declared just does not have the same media weight as Bill Gates thinks clippy is a brillant feature) 3. software users inertia is such parity means no switching and no new market share. You want switches you have to be better, and to be better you can't expend your resources were your competitor excels and you suck. If you can bring all you've asked for to Fedora without diverting its resources or weakening its message fine. Net win, no one will protest. But anything more costly is like building the steam car customer polls asks for when your competitors are working on an explosion engines. Regards, -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============6939014198292948900== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlFWUVBQkVDQUFZRkFrUXRtcXdBQ2drUUkyYlZLRHNwOGcycnpRQ2c1Umt5Z21X ZU9FNWhUQWdRNE9EcWpBUjQKUW0wQW9LUFlkK2ZhbytxWUdpUjc0VXNBMURwdWlLNjEKPXV5Q20K LS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCg== --===============6939014198292948900==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri Mar 31 16:13:39 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8331805378917493289==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 23:13:10 +0200 Message-ID: <1143839593.2561.60.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: e0k4g9$6ea$1@sea.gmane.org --===============8331805378917493289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le vendredi 31 mars 2006 =C3=A0 14:47 -0600, Ian Pilcher a =C3=A9crit : > Dave Jones wrote: > > There are a number of other cards, where the situation is worse. > > Short of running their binary driver, the Matrox parhelia is > > a really expensive way to run the vesa driver for example. > > (The mga driver doesn't support anything newer than g550 iirc). > = > So why is everybody so hell-bent on making basic desktop functionality > dependent on 3D performance? Probably because nowadays using 2D primitives on hardware designed to do 3D is not that much easier and a lot less efficient than doing 3D directly. At least that's how I understood the 3D people arguments. -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============8331805378917493289== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlFWUVBQkVDQUFZRkFrUXRtMllBQ2drUUkyYlZLRHNwOGcyUmJnQ2NDN3JNVG9p VHJxRkhGeUcxVUJYeEpscm8KYm5zQW5Sa2IrMUhzZnFDcjZBN3phSjVIVHVZNnhrMEoKPWRkVHIK LS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCg== --===============8331805378917493289==-- From i.pilcher at comcast.net Fri Mar 31 16:31:03 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1920378316584147458==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ian Pilcher To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:30:35 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 1143839593.2561.60.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org --===============1920378316584147458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Probably because nowadays using 2D primitives on hardware designed to do > 3D is not that much easier and a lot less efficient than doing 3D > directly. At least that's how I understood the 3D people arguments. All of which would be fine and dandy if graphics hardware manufacturers provided the specs necessary to create Open Source drivers. As things stand, we seem to be headed for the day when the type of basic desktop functionality we take for granted today will absolutely require the use of binary drivers from ATI or nVIDIA. I don't understand why people who claim to care about software freedom seem to working to create this situation. Is it 5:00 yet? -- = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Ian Pilcher i.pilcher(a)comcast.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --===============1920378316584147458==-- From seanlkml at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 31 16:35:06 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3526367796304535455==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Sean To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:32:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: e0k71t$f8a$1@sea.gmane.org --===============3526367796304535455== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:30:35 -0600 Ian Pilcher wrote: > All of which would be fine and dandy if graphics hardware manufacturers > provided the specs necessary to create Open Source drivers. As things > stand, we seem to be headed for the day when the type of basic desktop > functionality we take for granted today will absolutely require the use > of binary drivers from ATI or nVIDIA. = Well that's the doomsday scenario, hopefully it won't come to that. > I don't understand why people who > claim to care about software freedom seem to working to create this > situation. Right now some great work is going into open source drivers for some high end ATI hardware. Not there yet, but coming along nicely. As well, there is a BeOS open source driver for some pretty recent nVidia hardware, with a chance that it will be ported over to Linux. Plus, in the _long_ term the pace of graphcis hardware churn is going to vastly deminish which will give open source solutions = a more fixed target to catch up with. = > Is it 5:00 yet? lol, almost. Sean --===============3526367796304535455==-- From naheemzaffar at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 20:18:52 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5073451629757961951==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Naheem Zaffar To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 02:18:45 +0100 Message-ID: <3adc77210603311718u204484d5v20ac049407972cf1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: BAYC1-PASMTP10289A183B5D66E44A3AECAED60@CEZ.ICE --===============5073451629757961951== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fedora has its goals, and sould stick to them. However there is (IMO) a usability case that ESR has identified. If someone tries to play a MP3 file or some other format that is not supported, there is a generic error. What IMO should be done is that the error should be in more detail, eg mentioning there is no MP3 support atm. Next there should be a link to Fedoraproject wiki page, where there is some information about propriety plugins, and their 'evil' in regards to FLOSS, and about legal floss alternatives (mention ogg etc). But underneath, there should be solutions for legally viable 'additions'. There should be the info about the mplug macromedia flash repository, as its legal, and has redistribution rights. There should also be a link to fluendo and its free commercial MP3 plugin for Gstreamer. There would be no need to add information about legally dubious (for the US anyway) repositories. There could be info for other legal software too. This way, fedora is always free, does not promote the proprietory software, but also gives the user a solution when needed. win/win? (should there be a BZ on this? or is it not feasible due to something I have missed out?) ftr, I use fedora because its not encumbered. I add a few bells and whistles, but not as much as I need to with a fresh Windows install. (even here it needs top be updated to get the latest wma multimedia support!, and then add quicktime, real, an anti-virus, anti-sam software, word processor, flash, java, 7zip or other file compressor/exrtractor, a proper email client, a bittorrent client, messenger software for each major IM network I use (I have moved to gaim on windows now. far easierthan having multiple softwares slowing everything down) and many many others. Its far quicker on Fedora.) I am sure if there was a fedora PC reseller, plugins would be added before it reaches the end user. Maybe we need some case studies here? give someone a fresh windows install, and a fresh fedora install. See which requires more effort to get to a certain point? could be good material for marketing purpoeses? All in all Fedora is far closer than people think. It has the first 99%, it just needs the last 99% ;) I think i have put enough jumbled thoughts into this email :) --===============5073451629757961951== Content-Type: text/html MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="attachment.html" RmVkb3JhIGhhcyBpdHMgZ29hbHMsIGFuZCBzb3VsZCBzdGljayB0byB0aGVtLjxicj48YnI+SG93 ZXZlciB0aGVyZSBpcyAoSU1PKSBhIHVzYWJpbGl0eSBjYXNlIHRoYXQgRVNSIGhhcyBpZGVudGlm aWVkLiBJZiBzb21lb25lIHRyaWVzIHRvIHBsYXkgYSBNUDMgZmlsZSBvciBzb21lIG90aGVyIGZv cm1hdCB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCBzdXBwb3J0ZWQsIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgZ2VuZXJpYyBlcnJvci4gCjxi cj48YnI+V2hhdCBJTU8gc2hvdWxkIGJlIGRvbmUgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgZXJyb3Igc2hvdWxkIGJl IGluIG1vcmUgZGV0YWlsLCBlZyBtZW50aW9uaW5nIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIE1QMyBzdXBwb3J0IGF0 bS48YnI+PGJyPk5leHQgdGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGEgbGluayB0byBGZWRvcmFwcm9qZWN0IHdp a2kgcGFnZSwgd2hlcmUgdGhlcmUgaXMgc29tZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBhYm91dCBwcm9wcmlldHkg cGx1Z2lucywgYW5kIHRoZWlyICdldmlsJyBpbiByZWdhcmRzIHRvIEZMT1NTLCBhbmQgYWJvdXQg bGVnYWwgZmxvc3MgYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmVzIChtZW50aW9uIG9nZyBldGMpLiBCdXQgdW5kZXJuZWF0 aCwgdGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHNvbHV0aW9ucyBmb3IgbGVnYWxseSB2aWFibGUgJ2FkZGl0aW9u cycuCjxicj48YnI+VGhlcmUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSBpbmZvIGFib3V0IHRoZSBtcGx1ZyBtYWNy b21lZGlhIGZsYXNoIHJlcG9zaXRvcnksIGFzIGl0cyBsZWdhbCwgYW5kIGhhcyByZWRpc3RyaWJ1 dGlvbiByaWdodHMuIFRoZXJlIHNob3VsZCBhbHNvIGJlIGEgbGluayB0byBmbHVlbmRvIGFuZCBp dHMgZnJlZSBjb21tZXJjaWFsIE1QMyBwbHVnaW4gZm9yIEdzdHJlYW1lci4gVGhlcmUgd291bGQg YmUgbm8gbmVlZCB0byBhZGQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQgbGVnYWxseSBkdWJpb3VzIChmb3Ig dGhlIFVTIGFueXdheSkgcmVwb3NpdG9yaWVzLiBUaGVyZSBjb3VsZCBiZSBpbmZvIGZvciBvdGhl ciBsZWdhbCBzb2Z0d2FyZSB0b28uCjxicj48YnI+VGhpcyB3YXksIGZlZG9yYSBpcyBhbHdheXMg ZnJlZSwgZG9lcyBub3QgcHJvbW90ZSB0aGUgcHJvcHJpZXRvcnkgc29mdHdhcmUsIGJ1dCBhbHNv IGdpdmVzIHRoZSB1c2VyIGEgc29sdXRpb24gd2hlbiBuZWVkZWQuPGJyPjxicj53aW4vd2luPyAo c2hvdWxkIHRoZXJlIGJlIGEgQlogb24gdGhpcz8gb3IgaXMgaXQgbm90IGZlYXNpYmxlIGR1ZSB0 byBzb21ldGhpbmcgSSBoYXZlIG1pc3NlZCBvdXQ/KQo8YnI+PGJyPmZ0ciwgSSB1c2UgZmVkb3Jh IGJlY2F1c2UgaXRzIG5vdCBlbmN1bWJlcmVkLiBJIGFkZCBhIGZldyBiZWxscyBhbmQgd2hpc3Rs ZXMsIGJ1dCBub3QgYXMgbXVjaCBhcyBJIG5lZWQgdG8gd2l0aCBhIGZyZXNoIFdpbmRvd3MgaW5z dGFsbC4gKGV2ZW4gaGVyZSBpdCBuZWVkcyB0b3AgYmUgdXBkYXRlZCB0byBnZXQgdGhlIGxhdGVz dCB3bWEgbXVsdGltZWRpYSBzdXBwb3J0ISwgYW5kIHRoZW4gYWRkIHF1aWNrdGltZSwgcmVhbCwg YW4gYW50aS12aXJ1cywgYW50aS1zYW0gc29mdHdhcmUsIHdvcmQgcHJvY2Vzc29yLCBmbGFzaCwg amF2YSwgN3ppcCBvciBvdGhlciBmaWxlIGNvbXByZXNzb3IvZXhydHJhY3RvciwgYSBwcm9wZXIg ZW1haWwgY2xpZW50LCBhIGJpdHRvcnJlbnQgY2xpZW50LCBtZXNzZW5nZXIgc29mdHdhcmUgZm9y IGVhY2ggbWFqb3IgSU0gbmV0d29yayBJIHVzZSAoSSBoYXZlIG1vdmVkIHRvIGdhaW0gb24gd2lu ZG93cyBub3cuIGZhciBlYXNpZXJ0aGFuIGhhdmluZyBtdWx0aXBsZSBzb2Z0d2FyZXMgc2xvd2lu ZyBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGRvd24pIGFuZCBtYW55IG1hbnkgb3RoZXJzLiBJdHMgZmFyIHF1aWNrZXIg b24gRmVkb3JhLikKPGJyPjxicj5JIGFtIHN1cmUgaWYgdGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgZmVkb3JhIFBDIHJl c2VsbGVyLCBwbHVnaW5zIHdvdWxkIGJlIGFkZGVkIGJlZm9yZSBpdCByZWFjaGVzIHRoZSBlbmQg dXNlci48YnI+PGJyPk1heWJlIHdlIG5lZWQgc29tZSBjYXNlIHN0dWRpZXMgaGVyZT8gZ2l2ZSBz b21lb25lIGEgZnJlc2ggd2luZG93cyBpbnN0YWxsLCBhbmQgYSBmcmVzaCBmZWRvcmEgaW5zdGFs bC4gU2VlIHdoaWNoIHJlcXVpcmVzIG1vcmUgZWZmb3J0IHRvIGdldCB0byBhIGNlcnRhaW4gcG9p bnQ/IGNvdWxkIGJlIGdvb2QgbWF0ZXJpYWwgZm9yIG1hcmtldGluZyBwdXJwb2VzZXM/Cjxicj48 YnI+QWxsIGluIGFsbCBGZWRvcmEgaXMgZmFyIGNsb3NlciB0aGFuIHBlb3BsZSB0aGluay4gSXQg aGFzIHRoZSBmaXJzdCA5OSUsIGl0IGp1c3QgbmVlZHMgdGhlIGxhc3QgOTklIDspPGJyPjxicj5J IHRoaW5rIGkgaGF2ZSBwdXQgZW5vdWdoIGp1bWJsZWQgdGhvdWdodHMgaW50byB0aGlzIGVtYWls IDopPGJyPjxicj48YnI+Cg== --===============5073451629757961951==-- From andy at warmcat.com Sat Apr 1 03:47:00 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1142340229284328160==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 09:46:51 +0100 Message-ID: <442E3DFB.5020502@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060331194359.GB25535@thyrsus.com --===============1142340229284328160== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > wants the desktop and what it's prepared to do to get it. It ties > into a larger issue about what the Linux community needs to do to > thrive under competitive pressure, which *is* a question for Fedora. What does "competitive pressure" mean in the context of a Free OS? >> I don't see a single reason to accept your dramatic characterizations as = >> accurate. > = > Well, I've been right about this sort of thing before, and I've > continued to pay attention. You're living in an industry > significantly shaped by the fact that I got some key market analysis > right and then addressed the implied problem, and a lot of VCs and > CEOs and investment bankers listen *very* respectfully when I talk. > = > This doesn't make me infallible, of course, but it does mean betting > that I'm wrong this time is not something to do casually. Well good for you, but it doesn't get you a free ride on your dramatic = characterizations of "Death of Linux Unless Y'all Do As I Say". If you = spoke of anything to explain the reasoning behind the proposition of = Linux dying unless it gets on a large number of desktops quickly on this = thread, I missed it. - Why shouldn't a dramatic growth of Linux on the Desktop have the = opposite effect of triggering an apocalypse of attacks from MSFT on = their various desktop-related patents? - Why will market share defend against that when it didn't help RIM = one bit, in fact made matters worse come the damages? - Why is the current frog-boiling method while Linux and the Free apps = improve and establish themselves deeper and deeper not good enough? - In your theory, is Linux in the embedded space going to die too = because MSFT continue to have ~90% of desktops? -Andy --===============1142340229284328160== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwNDAx MDg0NjUxWjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUxV5lxbae8PK7kDNlqH6BQMpqUrUwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAUCEpC8VvPRyCNfYsJn+YIU6ifwzSvo7adhTb1RiS/e1xXWuHare2jRKM1R+C MBWzrRYzohGQJ50V6iPYl97cYcK/4BBe9M9K5wNQePq4FeyTeLlwffX2yDK0HiZHrJpsw295E0hZ jeAh7x26v1CvG9TTtAiRjLjt0rf4CT9gZMVxSRBE0PPFG++Dtgn9N9nA8htP+D2y2XHqyn5fuVFn lIMG2YO6rq+jOTPkwnc6omC2Dc3HAgJm/m2X43tI6lLXQgK1C+KFlhSRN6ssxBnlgk/J6vhlCFWR 5CiZcz+D5W2zk6qCgjxsN1iMFev/PgGTA2PEot9RblLFRa0Y5JbDQAAAAAAAAA== --===============1142340229284328160==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Sun Apr 2 00:48:34 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3206380890147658076==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:48:28 -0500 Message-ID: <20060402054828.GD6796@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 442E3DFB.5020502@warmcat.com --===============3206380890147658076== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy Green : > >wants the desktop and what it's prepared to do to get it. It ties > >into a larger issue about what the Linux community needs to do to > >thrive under competitive pressure, which *is* a question for Fedora. > = > What does "competitive pressure" mean in the context of a Free OS? Competitive pressure for market share from Windows and MacOS, of course. = > >This doesn't make me infallible, of course, but it does mean betting > >that I'm wrong this time is not something to do casually. > = > Well good for you, but it doesn't get you a free ride on your dramatic = > characterizations of "Death of Linux Unless Y'all Do As I Say". If you = > spoke of anything to explain the reasoning behind the proposition of = > Linux dying unless it gets on a large number of desktops quickly on this = > thread, I missed it. I think I explained this in some datail earlier. We need market power in order to stave off a future where we get DRMed and EULAed to death because hardware manufacturers figure all they have to do is serve the Windows & Intel Mac markets. Down that road lie video cards we can't use and on-the-mobo TPM to lock us out. = > - Why shouldn't a dramatic growth of Linux on the Desktop have the = > opposite effect of triggering an apocalypse of attacks from MSFT on = > their various desktop-related patents? That will happen once we do *anything* to piss off Microsoft enough, whether it's the fast-growth scenario I want to see or the boil-the-frog- slowly scenario you think is good enough. So it's kind of a wash. > - Why is the current frog-boiling method while Linux and the Free apps = > improve and establish themselves deeper and deeper not good enough? Because it's not getting us any desktop penetration to speak of. = > - In your theory, is Linux in the embedded space going to die too = > because MSFT continue to have ~90% of desktops? No, but lots of Linux in the embedded space doesn't solve our problem eithe= r. Puts no pressure on the video-card makers, for one thing. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============3206380890147658076==-- From gmaxwell at gmail.com Sun Apr 2 04:35:27 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2579666717616348847==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gregory Maxwell To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 04:35:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20060402054828.GD6796@thyrsus.com --===============2579666717616348847== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/2/06, Eric S. Raymond wrote: [snip] > I think I explained this in some datail earlier. We need market power > in order to stave off a future where we get DRMed and EULAed to death > because hardware manufacturers figure all they have to do is serve the > Windows & Intel Mac markets. Down that road lie video cards we can't > use and on-the-mobo TPM to lock us out. [snip] So what you are saying is that we need to endorse and distribute (potentially illegally) technologies which reduce the users freedom (by being obviously patent encumbered or otherwise proprietary) in order to protect ourselves from technologies which reduce the users freedom and which we could only use illegally? Something just doesn't feel right about that argument. There are already excellent open and free alternatives for the encumbered formats, but they need wider support. Content houses don't feel the need to support them because they aren't available out of the box on mainstream desktop OSes, and because the production tools on those OSes are rather rough around the corners. This is not an insurmountable problem. It wasn't that long ago that the mainstream desktop OSes didn't come with any usable players and codecs... and it's still the case that a large amount of content is still distributed formats which require some form of download by the user... and you're telling me that 'Linux' is in peril because Fedora is taking legally safe, a freedom conscious path of avoiding encumbered software? Oh please! If half the effort that goes into whining about this were put into educating users, improving the tools for open formats on mainstream desktop platforms (i.e. http://www.flumotion.net/cortado/, http://ffdshow.sourceforge.net/tikiwiki/tiki-view_articles.php), and advocacy with content providers (for example, why the #@$ is archive.org not offering Theora as a option on all content?), then we'd be a lot closer to a real solution. If you think you can help out Linux by offering a distro laden with encumbered software, then by all means.. we've given you the freedom to do so. But please realize that just because someone else doesn't agree with your give-up-freedom-to-protect-ourselves argument, it doesn't mean that they are wrong. --===============2579666717616348847==-- From seg at haxxed.com Sun Apr 2 06:12:05 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4624493194201352210==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Callum Lerwick To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 05:18:41 -0500 Message-ID: <1143973122.10632.129.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: e692861c0604020035i3befaf80o2a123e5d28d5a544@mail.gmail.com --===============4624493194201352210== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The real solution is not to encumber Linux with closed source software, it is to encumber Windows with open source software. --===============4624493194201352210== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFTDZVQkkzQlZLUmNyWDdjUkFuSXpBSjluNXhsTkozaWdpbEl5NTFB Z3l6bEdWejIzTEFDZ3BHd2cKeXJwSm1lc0FqTUppazVVc0hicUJub2s9Cj05dklRCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============4624493194201352210==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Sun Apr 2 07:07:23 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2104311333627942792==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 13:06:57 +0200 Message-ID: <1143976022.8941.37.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: 1143973122.10632.129.camel@localhost --===============2104311333627942792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le dimanche 02 avril 2006 =C3=A0 05:18 -0500, Callum Lerwick a =C3=A9crit : > The real solution is not to encumber Linux with closed source software, > it is to encumber Windows with open source software. +1 1. Take a survey of windows/osx mp3/avi producers 2. Setup a site that promotes ogg/flac/theora tools for the same tasks, and makes them easier to use than the mp3 tools (with howtos, walkthroughs, deployment examples) 3. produce ogg/flac/theora windows/osx codec packages which are easy to install, find and link to (*not* standalone players - lets not link formats to applications like the dark side) And you'll have done more for the unpatented formats than all this nonsense (and would have relieved pressure on Fedora at the same time) In France the public radio added ogg streams some time ago under massive user pressure. The *only* reasons it had considered switching to wma-only in the first place were : 1. real is too expensive 2. MS promised them a no-pain solution 3. setting up ogg streams was perceived as a black art on the client and server side The *same* arguments could have been advanced to justify IIS intead of Apache if Apache didn't have extensive and well known documentation and support communities. Help anyone setup its own ogg webradio in 30 min max, and hardware makers *will* take note. -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============2104311333627942792== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlFWUVBQkVDQUFZRkFrUXZzRkVBQ2drUUkyYlZLRHNwOGcwT0xRQ2c4YTQwS2dR QTJyOE1ES0VISmplVlRtWkgKTnQ4QW5pQjl6d2Y1WjdvdzV5Z3NUM0h6K1MrS3k5WGYKPU93ZjQK LS0tLS1FTkQgUEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tCg== --===============2104311333627942792==-- From dedourek at unb.ca Sun Apr 2 14:43:03 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2113200590513087273==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John DeDourek To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 15:42:58 -0300 Message-ID: <44301B32.2010908@unb.ca> In-Reply-To: 1143976022.8941.37.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org --===============2113200590513087273== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicolas Mailhot wrote: >In France the public radio added ogg streams some time ago under massive >user pressure. > On the other hand: http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/ Win some, lose some. --===============2113200590513087273==-- From seg at haxxed.com Sun Apr 2 14:57:33 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4641193179365543762==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Callum Lerwick To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:04:19 -0500 Message-ID: <1144004660.10632.151.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: 1143976022.8941.37.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org --===============4641193179365543762== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 13:06 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le dimanche 02 avril 2006 =C3=A0 05:18 -0500, Callum Lerwick a =C3=A9crit= : > > The real solution is not to encumber Linux with closed source software, > > it is to encumber Windows with open source software. > = > +1 Great inroads have been made popularizing Firefox on Windows. GAIM is an easy sell, no ads. Casual users tend to prefer OpenOffice to pirating or actually spending money on MS Office. WinAmp has supported ogg for some time. I'm told there's ogg-vorbis codecs for DirectShow that actually work well. Apache and bind are widely used on Windows servers. I kind of ment to put OSX in there too. Though its already half-"encumbered" with open source. I've found the state of ogg support on OSX is sad. There's a quicktime codec around, allowing you to play ogg in iTunes, but it was slow and buggy as hell when I tried it. There's VLC but its not really oriented for music playing. I ended up just installing X11 and xmms from fink to play music on my iMac. Outside the scope of Fedora, though. --===============4641193179365543762== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFTUNBekkzQlZLUmNyWDdjUkFza2NBS0NjcVBlcmNYT3lnMFdFMjZn cXg1cHMwVHV3TmdDZmV4dEwKaGZERjZoUExtU2NUMnpZSEkydm1wNlU9Cj1FcHZBCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============4641193179365543762==-- From db-fedora at 3di.it Mon Apr 3 03:40:06 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2749554190586347545==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Davide Bolcioni To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 09:39:58 +0200 Message-ID: <4430D14E.6060006@3di.it> In-Reply-To: BAYC1-PASMTP10289A183B5D66E44A3AECAED60@CEZ.ICE --===============2749554190586347545== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sean wrote: > Right now some great work is going into open source drivers for some > high end ATI hardware. Not there yet, but coming along nicely. > As well, there is a BeOS open source driver for some pretty recent > nVidia hardware, with a chance that it will be ported over to Linux. A breath of fresh air. Could you provide links for either ? Davide Bolcioni -- = There is no place like /home. --===============2749554190586347545==-- From andy at warmcat.com Mon Apr 3 03:45:55 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8313991448078142706==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Closed OSes exist for Closed content Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:45:39 +0100 Message-ID: <4430D2A3.4060408@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 20060402054828.GD6796@thyrsus.com --===============8313991448078142706== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Andy Green : >>> wants the desktop and what it's prepared to do to get it. It ties >>> into a larger issue about what the Linux community needs to do to >>> thrive under competitive pressure, which *is* a question for Fedora. >> What does "competitive pressure" mean in the context of a Free OS? > = > Competitive pressure for market share from Windows and MacOS, of course. I'm no wiser after hearing that "competitive pressure" means = "competitive pressure". The Free OSes don't really compete for seats in = the same way that a commercial OS does, because the model allows one = copy of the install media to bleed into and dupe itself wherever it is = wanted. If that is one seat or 1,000 it makes little difference to a = Free OS like Fedora since it has no per-seat income. > I think I explained this in some datail earlier. We need market power > in order to stave off a future where we get DRMed and EULAed to death Patent law and content protection laws like the DMCA and EUCD give huge = punitive powers to the folks that originate "technological protection = measures" and Copyright law itself totally gives copyrightholders the = power to license content only to non-Free OSes or devices and to cut out = Free solutions. They are motivated to do so because they hope to = restrict unauthorized copying. Therefore the content that the = lumpenprolitariat people want, to watch DVDs, HDTV media content, HDTV = downloads is definitively out of the reach of Free OSes unless fashion = changes and en clar content like CD Audio or VHS is the norm. (I see = Bojan Smojver has made my points on this already). Vista will have it all at a cost as will OSX and you can say then "that = is what they are for". For all other usage that does not require it -- = that's quite a lot, like your standard Office PC, Linux is getting = really quite ready to leak into and then floodfill that space. The content IS DRM'd going on and it is hard to see legit players for it = licensed on Linux other than highly exotic ones with signed binary = drivers, a signed kernel coming up from TPM, basically making your box = un-Free. It's clear that traditional restrictively licensed media is inherently = anti-Free, since the last thing you can do with it is copy it around, = but the crypto goes one step further and makes it actively evil, since = it tries to pervert people away from Free OSes on to platforms = controlled by the originators to actually play it. "Market power" in the form of a lot of Free boxes will only harden the = crypto-locked media providers against allowing decode on that = 'dangerous' 'widespread' 'out of their control' platform, not strongarm = them into it. > because hardware manufacturers figure all they have to do is serve the > Windows & Intel Mac markets. Down that road lie video cards we can't > use and on-the-mobo TPM to lock us out. "serving Windows + Intel Mac" is not the same as "video cards we can't = use", and that is not the same as "linux dying". Still, advanced = features of video cards are closed even today, it is a sore point in an = otherwise pretty decent driver landscape. TPM to bind the OS-at-the-time-of-sale to the motherboard is possible. = As things stand though all PC motherboards, excluding the Xbox 1, are = pretty much agnostic about OS. Only Apple seems to want to change that. = If it catches on there are serious and obvious Antitrust problems. BTW: https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/downloads/background_docs/TCGBackgrou= nder_revised_012605.pdf '' ... 4. Initialization and management functions that allow the owner to turn functionality on and off, reset the chip, and take ownership, with strong controls to protect privacy. The system owner is trusted and must opt-in. The user, if different from the owner, may opt-out if desired. ...'' (p6) >> - Why shouldn't a dramatic growth of Linux on the Desktop have the = >> opposite effect of triggering an apocalypse of attacks from MSFT on = >> their various desktop-related patents? > = > That will happen once we do *anything* to piss off Microsoft enough, > whether it's the fast-growth scenario I want to see or the boil-the-frog- > slowly scenario you think is good enough. So it's kind of a wash. They have to be able to show damages to launch a painful attack, showing = that say 10% of their market share was lost to Linux due as they might = claim to unlawful use of the patented stuff will serve for that. It's = harder if a lost-in-the-noise 0.5% is bleeding away year by year. So = it's not all the same. >> - Why is the current frog-boiling method while Linux and the Free apps = >> improve and establish themselves deeper and deeper not good enough? > = > Because it's not getting us any desktop penetration to speak of. > = >> - In your theory, is Linux in the embedded space going to die too = >> because MSFT continue to have ~90% of desktops? > = > No, but lots of Linux in the embedded space doesn't solve our problem eit= her. > Puts no pressure on the video-card makers, for one thing. Summary: - "Linux" will go on regardless, there is no 'die'. "Linux" is a very = broad thing: patent attacks may chop bits out case by case. The urgency = and level of threat you have been talking about are false propositions, = probably brought on by Vista-angst - You raise video cards becoming more closed as the other cost of not = getting enough marketshare, it's certainly possible. It's not obvious = what kind of lost market would prompt action. So far there is support = for the mass market video cards one way or another. - You raise DRM as the cost of failure to get marketshare, but DRM is = not sensitive to Free OS Marketshare because it will not target it, only = closed platforms by definition. Therefore there is no possibility to = legally compete with modern media playback, even DVD. Therefore this = whole stack of capability is ceded to paid-for, closed OSes. - Closed OSes are given a role and meaning in the world by the above. = If you don't like it then Copyright and Patent law are the enemies. = You can fight it by encouraging liberally licensed media, donations at = Jamendo.com made me feel better about it. - Cracked, quite possibly illegal solutions exist for nonpermitted = media playback: as a project, aside from what we do as individuals, if = Fedora stands for encouraging that in order to get "market share" we = will have become MSFT. -Andy --===============8313991448078142706== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwNDAz MDc0NTM5WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUKuUimx/PYLOhOdNWCPla5ijt+eEwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEADqYrAPpcx8xCSvLso2ZkOta7D5u/GHh4NpQsACFtBYA15Masb2va5jYh9Uxq MG3HTu8YRyx4fGUTaNuDs1s1Jip1hu397mJf4WjSX8vr0gbJiP2XtxmtQ/cZLJF091/of7sBJHta pS4VMWzxYnMUUl4i3HjucjljdHP4QKJT5mBDO+S1Ywpcv8H5WAPH/ExhQnmgDizgwp2hA/gVVmQI LU4Yx+LjNS9UkQHBIZZ4CGhfh/vtq6GOnP/EpUrntL6dHcC1uTXd94TzE1MMe3LRqip7qYc3/Uz8 dxcm9YBY3k8cTBXBAyGGY/zv1G9jHIGLdncYbNx2FXRBgh6L5MuheQAAAAAAAA== --===============8313991448078142706==-- From Lam at Lam.pl Mon Apr 3 05:29:52 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3528819131256741289==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Leszek Matok To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Closed OSes exist for Closed content Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:29:47 +0200 Message-ID: <1144056587.2803.8.camel@pensja.lam.pl> In-Reply-To: 4430D2A3.4060408@warmcat.com --===============3528819131256741289== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dnia 03-04-2006, pon o godzinie 08:45 +0100, Andy Green napisa=C5=82(a): > the model allows one = > copy of the install media to bleed into and dupe itself wherever it is = > wanted. If that is one seat or 1,000 it makes little difference to a = > Free OS like Fedora since it has no per-seat income. Yes it has. Firstly, companies like our sponsor Red Hat get money from sold copies and donate some part of it to 1. OSS projects development, 2. fight software patents. Secondly, for any OSS project every user means 1. bigger chance to find a bug, 2. bigger chance to gain more developers. Lam --===============3528819131256741289== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0KVmVyc2lvbjogR251UEcgdjEuNC4yLjIgKEdO VS9MaW51eCkKCmlEOERCUUJFTU9zTEdVK0N6Uy93U3pZUkFpbnhBS0NXM0R6RnovNkx1dllqZSs5 OTYzWTd5WFo3dXdDZUpvY28KSDJHVjZJbjNmVnV3bFNuZGxJbWdWdUE9Cj1DTlBNCi0tLS0tRU5E IFBHUCBTSUdOQVRVUkUtLS0tLQo= --===============3528819131256741289==-- From andy at warmcat.com Mon Apr 3 07:27:41 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8164803256011771123==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Andy Green To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: Closed OSes exist for Closed content Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:27:26 +0100 Message-ID: <4431069E.9080902@warmcat.com> In-Reply-To: 1144056587.2803.8.camel@pensja.lam.pl --===============8164803256011771123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leszek Matok wrote: > Dnia 03-04-2006, pon o godzinie 08:45 +0100, Andy Green napisa=C5=82(a): >> the model allows one = >> copy of the install media to bleed into and dupe itself wherever it is = >> wanted. If that is one seat or 1,000 it makes little difference to a = >> Free OS like Fedora since it has no per-seat income. > Yes it has. Firstly, companies like our sponsor Red Hat get money from > sold copies and donate some part of it to 1. OSS projects development, I was speaking about specifically Fedora. RHAT get $0 from "sold = copies" of Fedora AFAIK. RHEL is sold, and the Redhat Desktop thing = seems to be sold, or maybe just the support contracts are sold. > 2. fight software patents. Secondly, for any OSS project every user > means 1. bigger chance to find a bug, 2. bigger chance to gain more > developers. Right, but the proposal was that Linux must operate under "competitive = pressure". It seems like that could mean something, but it doesn't mean = for Fedora what it means for, say, a traditional Unix vendor. If they = make $100 per seat per year then 1000 seats means something important to = them and if some other OS gets it instead it hurts. Presumably everyone = here is happy if those 1000 seats go to Fedora, but if it does not, = something less than a $100,000 loss has happened to a Free OS, since = they would not have seen the money anyway: the less tangible losses you = describe take place. "Competition" for users would seem to mean = something different where a Free OS is concerned then. -Andy --===============8164803256011771123== Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMpDCCA2Iw ggLLoAMCAQICEAvaCxfBP4mOqwl0erTOLjMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQECBQAwXzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTcwNQYDVQQLEy5DbGFzcyAxIFB1YmxpYyBQcmltYXJ5 IENlcnRpZmljYXRpb24gQXV0aG9yaXR5MB4XDTk4MDUxMjAwMDAwMFoXDTA4MDUxMjIzNTk1OVow gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0A MIGJAoGBALtaRIoEFrtV/QN6ii2UTxV4NrgNSrJvnFS/vOh3Kp258Gi7ldkxQXB6gUu5SBNWLccI 4YRCq8CikqtEXKpC8IIOAukv+8I7u77JJwpdtrA2QjO1blSIT4dKvxna+RXoD4e2HOPMxpqOf2ok kuP84GW6p7F+78nbN2rISsgJBuSZAgMBAAGjgbAwga0wDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBADBHBgNVHSAE QDA+MDwGC2CGSAGG+EUBBwEBMC0wKwYIKwYBBQUHAgEWH3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3Np dG9yeS9SUEEwMQYDVR0fBCowKDAmoCSgIoYgaHR0cDovL2NybC52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vcGNhMS5j cmwwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgEGMBEGCWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIBBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQACfZ5v RUs4oLje6VNkIbzkTCuPHv6SQKzYCjlqoTIhLAebq1n+0mIafVU4sDdz3PQHZmNiveFTcFKH56jY UulbLarh3s+sMVTUixnI2COo7wQrMn0sGBzIfImoLnfyRNFlCk10te7TG5JzdC6JOzUTcudAMZrT ssSr51a+i+P7FTCCBJswggQEoAMCAQICEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAw gcwxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3 b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkg UmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1 YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQwHhcNMDUwOTE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMDYw OTE1MjM1OTU5WjCCAQ0xFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2ln biBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3JrMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBB IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MR4wHAYDVQQLExVQZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxp ZGF0ZWQxMzAxBgNVBAsTKkRpZ2l0YWwgSUQgQ2xhc3MgMSAtIE5ldHNjYXBlIEZ1bGwgU2Vydmlj ZTETMBEGA1UEAxQKQW5keSBHcmVlbjEfMB0GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYQYW5keUB3YXJtY2F0LmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANVXhXb2ER/6xqRdPiTDMKAhHrAGM1d98Da4 sQXNVXozfDiMoEgFAH/TqemjfT3+8pLqoQIL3U/3sLe3OObeKdnr3fqqVsWsKYr8xG+gfF9I8iqo DcClyHynYKYvlJHZLE8dRSq4yzzEOl+3XaDNaoCqH3Ib5BdJoewdHRmr/gEd3XHMcHzbpRs4a25y pX3iIOi4SLEUZzisenqZpneTnImSOjbopmPMQ3YAyF7bOqT3KBSFbDWwa4gb/qBw8xH/dn1RdH51 FoJptwcu2NNZDnLcXU7ypmzTzhCDYk+b5+OYRG+vlLN/pcpXi0MZjHLluF2QOnKDmwjBHfCr/S/1 6KsCAwEAAaOBtTCBsjAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMEQGA1UdIAQ9MDswOQYLYIZIAYb4RQEHFwMwKjAoBggr BgEFBQcCARYcaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JwYTALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBaAwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jcmwudmVy aXNpZ24uY29tL2NsYXNzMS5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbF6fDKkfo8tb37H9zFd0p4xS AeyiujHP0fmAlBpic8zEIIysMGhPvX2vZZrV46rI6yYq0KYSRdG98UKjXDimYxe48lwL/QRJ54m9 iIdsp7+kw5yo9fmj7micjVQ0tHHZYFIzC5ogaDmWVEBuJYNznLF52d2wtwlmJ29nOjkZx5MwggSb MIIEBKADAgECAhAJZeSILjXSrq52pd6V5tejMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHMMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5W ZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29yazFGMEQGA1UECxM9 d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIEJ5IFJlZi4sTElBQi5MVEQo Yyk5ODFIMEYGA1UEAxM/VmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSBJbmRpdmlkdWFsIFN1YnNjcmliZXIt UGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMB4XDTA1MDkxNTAwMDAwMFoXDTA2MDkxNTIzNTk1OVowggEN MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0d29y azFGMEQGA1UECxM9d3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5L1JQQSBJbmNvcnAuIGJ5IFJl Zi4sTElBQi5MVEQoYyk5ODEeMBwGA1UECxMVUGVyc29uYSBOb3QgVmFsaWRhdGVkMTMwMQYDVQQL EypEaWdpdGFsIElEIENsYXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZSBGdWxsIFNlcnZpY2UxEzARBgNVBAMUCkFu ZHkgR3JlZW4xHzAdBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEGFuZHlAd2FybWNhdC5jb20wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEB AQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDVV4V29hEf+sakXT4kwzCgIR6wBjNXffA2uLEFzVV6M3w4jKBIBQB/ 06npo309/vKS6qECC91P97C3tzjm3inZ6936qlbFrCmK/MRvoHxfSPIqqA3Apch8p2CmL5SR2SxP HUUquMs8xDpft12gzWqAqh9yG+QXSaHsHR0Zq/4BHd1xzHB826UbOGtucqV94iDouEixFGc4rHp6 maZ3k5yJkjo26KZjzEN2AMhe2zqk9ygUhWw1sGuIG/6gcPMR/3Z9UXR+dRaCabcHLtjTWQ5y3F1O 8qZs084Qg2JPm+fjmERvr5Szf6XKV4tDGYxy5bhdkDpyg5sIwR3wq/0v9eirAgMBAAGjgbUwgbIw CQYDVR0TBAIwADBEBgNVHSAEPTA7MDkGC2CGSAGG+EUBBxcDMCowKAYIKwYBBQUHAgEWHGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9ycGEwCwYDVR0PBAQDAgWgMB0GA1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwME BggrBgEFBQcDAjAzBgNVHR8ELDAqMCigJqAkhiJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9jbGFz czEuY3JsMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAGxenwypH6PLW9+x/cxXdKeMUgHsoroxz9H5gJQaYnPM xCCMrDBoT719r2Wa1eOqyOsmKtCmEkXRvfFCo1w4pmMXuPJcC/0ESeeJvYiHbKe/pMOcqPX5o+5o nI1UNLRx2WBSMwuaIGg5llRAbiWDc5yxedndsLcJZidvZzo5GceTMYIEqjCCBKYCAQEwgeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwCQYFKw4D AhoFAKCCAp0wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDYwNDAz MTEyNzI2WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUxdK7uz2Vyh4EwocSJf0ZnY6C7ecwUgYJKoZIhvcNAQkP MUUwQzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzAOBggqhkiG9w0DAgICAIAwDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICAUAwBwYFKw4DAgcw DQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgwgfIGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDGB5DCB4TCBzDEXMBUGA1UEChMOVmVyaVNpZ24s IEluYy4xHzAdBgNVBAsTFlZlcmlTaWduIFRydXN0IE5ldHdvcmsxRjBEBgNVBAsTPXd3dy52ZXJp c2lnbi5jb20vcmVwb3NpdG9yeS9SUEEgSW5jb3JwLiBCeSBSZWYuLExJQUIuTFREKGMpOTgxSDBG BgNVBAMTP1ZlcmlTaWduIENsYXNzIDEgQ0EgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyLVBlcnNvbmEg Tm90IFZhbGlkYXRlZAIQCWXkiC410q6udqXelebXozCB9AYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxgeSggeEwgcwx FzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMR8wHQYDVQQLExZWZXJpU2lnbiBUcnVzdCBOZXR3b3Jr MUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvUlBBIEluY29ycC4gQnkgUmVm LixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk4MUgwRgYDVQQDEz9WZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIEluZGl2aWR1YWwg U3Vic2NyaWJlci1QZXJzb25hIE5vdCBWYWxpZGF0ZWQCEAll5IguNdKurnal3pXm16MwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEBBQAEggEAZ/lm+XadNFKRD6TU24YGOfNKIpBppYb4K035KIQGZhhbu55H9TGGXzng2crX oKbf7s5Je2Q7GyMrFr6KNkB2pVBaydgyMSJer9taOt08u5bdTGIVyfeYf5IBo/EYWqMLG78zN8pR vhvB6f3/PptAbeEfGfxDSkfcBzsT7clvFXW0JkQ5EIULB3tyNKxImVheO9leAzHvXoDwzAXG8ZhM MdnBQ1BOxIWtCTdItXmfGZH03u4aWG8W+Gx3DnZPMYqlg4HvzSTxsgF8MJZlAqHUjjvrNaydVXGI n72nfjH5h/wFYBaCjvSVBocSGwqZlOGssq4uyRfYYYwy0FMg4LYOmAAAAAAAAA== --===============8164803256011771123==-- From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Mon Apr 3 08:20:34 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5594961473336277564==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nicolas Mailhot To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:19:12 +0200 Message-ID: <33739.192.54.193.25.1144066752.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> In-Reply-To: 1144004660.10632.151.camel@localhost --===============5594961473336277564== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le Dim 2 avril 2006 21:04, Callum Lerwick a =C3=A9crit : > I'm told there's ogg-vorbis codecs for DirectShow that actually > work well. They may exist, but last time I looked finding the right windows ogg implementation was a challenge. Which is why you can't blame content producers (those who haven't sold off to the DRM camp) for going mp3 wma or real, where you do have end-to-end offerings with documentation printed on glazed paper. (pretty sad that OSS people argue for paying lumps of money to TMM instead of getting FOSS offerings into marching order) -- = Nicolas Mailhot --===============5594961473336277564==-- From seg at haxxed.com Mon Apr 3 13:50:54 2006 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1969824541733452730==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Callum Lerwick To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: 'Commercial Partners' Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:50:47 -0500 Message-ID: <53290.199.17.4.107.1144086647.squirrel@artdragon.mine.nu> In-Reply-To: 4430D14E.6060006@3di.it --===============1969824541733452730== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > sean wrote: > >> Right now some great work is going into open source drivers for some >> high end ATI hardware. Not there yet, but coming along nicely. >> As well, there is a BeOS open source driver for some pretty recent >> nVidia hardware, with a chance that it will be ported over to Linux. > > A breath of fresh air. Could you provide links for either ? http://nouveau.sourceforge.net/ http://r300.sourceforge.net/ --===============1969824541733452730==--