From esr at snark.thyrsus.com Tue Mar 2 16:06:07 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3123698078719619827==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:07:20 -0500 Message-ID: <200403022107.i22L7K2N012226@snark.thyrsus.com> --===============3123698078719619827== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There has been much discussion recently on the Fedora mailing list about how to improve Linux's ease of use in scenarios like printer setup. (Thank you, everyone, for picking up on the content of my rant so constructively when you very well might have dismissed it as carping.) I have just become aware of a technology which could represent a long step towards addressing the usability problem. It is a set of small patches to the IP infrastructure that support zero-configuration networking -- you just plug in an IP-capable device and it self-configures an IP address, becomes available in a local DNS namespace, and other devices automatically discover its presence and the services it offers. This technology is called "zeroconf", and is described at http://zeroconf.org. The first component of Zeroconf, self-assigned link-local addresses, has been shipping since Mac OS 8.5 in 1998, and the other two components, Multicast DNS and Service Discovery, shipped starting in OS X 10.2, a year and a half ago. Since then almost every maker of IP-over-Ethernet-capable printers printers has adopted Zeroconf and incorporated it into their firmware, and just about any network printer you can buy today has it. There is a mature open-source implementation which is part of the Darwin/OS X codebase. The zeroconf stuff uses existing services like DHCP and DNS if they exist -- and, just as importantly, doesn't mess them up when you plug a zeroconf-enabled device into a normal, manually-configured network -- but it doesn't need them. It uses a few simple, clever multicasting tricks and a technique for detecting IP address collisions. The total volume of code is not large, basically consisting of one zeroconf responder daemon and a handful of small patches to other services. Less than 100K all told, and that's *with* multihoming and IPv6 and all the bells and whistles. The effect is a lot like the Chooser application on the Mac (this is not accidental; zeroconf was written to replicate Chooser's behavior in a TCP/IP world). You plug Ethernet cables together and stuff just works -- no more complicated ritual dances with ifconfig, DHCP, and DNS. Your IP-enabled devices even magically appear in your DNS namespace, with a DNS name ending in ".local". Home networks using Linux would become zero-administration; Aunt Tille would love it. The inventor of zeroconf, Stuart Cheshire, tells me the technical problems are all solved and the solutions well tested, but he doesn't understand the politics of getting the Linux community to generally adopt zeroconf. He's anxious to help. I suggest that full integration of zeroconf should be added to Fedora's to-do list. For this to actually happen, somebody will need to step forward and become zeroconf's champion. Any volunteers? The source code (which already runs on Linux -- just do a "make os=3Dlinux; sudo make install") can be checked out from Apple's Darwin repository. Check out top-of-tree; Stuart tells me the tarball is a little out of date doesn't contain the latest fixes: The documentation in the mDNSPosix folder should be fairly clear. If not, Stuart Cheshire requests that you email him and Marc Krochmal with any questions, or you can ask on the public Rendezvous list: -- = Eric S. Raymond Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what = the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An = armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the = final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only = the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of = our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to = be among the outlaws. -- Edward Abbey, "Abbey's Road", 1979 --===============3123698078719619827==-- From alan at redhat.com Tue Mar 2 18:05:28 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8243628288963379912==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:07:50 -0500 Message-ID: <20040302230750.GA21059@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 200403022107.i22L7K2N012226@snark.thyrsus.com --===============8243628288963379912== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > has adopted Zeroconf and incorporated it into their firmware, and > just about any network printer you can buy today has it. There is > a mature open-source implementation which is part of the Darwin/OS X > codebase. That is debatable owing to possible patent issues. See the ietf web site list of IPR statements on the subject, although the patent may well be very dubious. --===============8243628288963379912==-- From kaboom at gatech.edu Tue Mar 2 18:10:01 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3164410088940044920==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Ricker To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:12:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20040302230750.GA21059@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============3164410088940044920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > > has adopted Zeroconf and incorporated it into their firmware, and > > just about any network printer you can buy today has it. There is > > a mature open-source implementation which is part of the Darwin/OS X > > codebase. > = > That is debatable owing to possible patent issues. See the ietf web site > list of IPR statements on the subject, although the patent may well > be very dubious. Not to mention the trademark infringement suit over the name "Rendezvous" = for Apple's code.... later, chris --===============3164410088940044920==-- From alan at redhat.com Tue Mar 2 18:16:32 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6759066980006483983==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:18:54 -0500 Message-ID: <20040302231854.GE21059@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: Pine.GSO.4.58.0403021810110.13330@redfish.gatech.edu --===============6759066980006483983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 06:12:28PM -0500, Chris Ricker wrote: > > That is debatable owing to possible patent issues. See the ietf web site > > list of IPR statements on the subject, although the patent may well > > be very dubious. > = > Not to mention the trademark infringement suit over the name "Rendezvous" = > for Apple's code.... Rendezvous is Apple's name for their version of it. A trademark is much less of a problem because you can name yours something different. = --===============6759066980006483983==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 2 19:18:06 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5968011239430714864==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:19:20 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303001920.GA13629@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: 20040302231854.GE21059@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============5968011239430714864== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan Cox : > On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 06:12:28PM -0500, Chris Ricker wrote: > > > That is debatable owing to possible patent issues. See the ietf web s= ite > > > list of IPR statements on the subject, although the patent may well > > > be very dubious. > > = > > Not to mention the trademark infringement suit over the name "Rendezvou= s" = > > for Apple's code.... > = > Rendezvous is Apple's name for their version of it. A trademark is much l= ess > of a problem because you can name yours something different. = That's right. = Now, maybe if we spent as much eneergy thinking of a way to make this work, rather than reasons it can't work, we'd be in better shape. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============5968011239430714864==-- From kaboom at gatech.edu Tue Mar 2 19:26:39 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6698797493864634421==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Ricker To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:29:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20040302231854.GE21059@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============6698797493864634421== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > Rendezvous is Apple's name for their version of it. A trademark is much l= ess > of a problem because you can name yours something different. = Right, but the only open-source mDNS implementation I know of is Rendezvous, so between that and MS's patents AFAIK it's just another idea without a usable open-source implementation for Fedora to even consider shipping.... later, chris --===============6698797493864634421==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 2 20:18:06 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3716768522105963820==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:19:21 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303011921.GA14219@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: Pine.GSO.4.58.0403021926550.25035@redfish.gatech.edu --===============3716768522105963820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Ricker : > On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > = >> Rendezvous is Apple's name for their version of it. A trademark is much = less >> of a problem because you can name yours something different. = > = > Right, but the only open-source mDNS implementation I know of is Rendezvo= us, > so between that and MS's patents AFAIK it's just another idea without a > usable open-source implementation for Fedora to even consider shipping.... MS's patents? This stuff was invented by Stuart Cheshire, a guy at Apple, = and has been shipping in Apple products since 1998. If there were going to be a patent kerfuffle with MS it would have happened already. Cheshire thinks the mDNS implementation is unencumbered and is not only willing but eager for Linux to adopt it. Now, possibly he's wrong, but wouldn't it be a good idea to ask him and look into the facts before muttering "patents" and turning off your brain? -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============3716768522105963820==-- From kaboom at gatech.edu Tue Mar 2 20:31:42 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9143079845921267549==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Ricker To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:34:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20040303011921.GA14219@thyrsus.com --===============9143079845921267549== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Chris Ricker : > > On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > > = > >> Rendezvous is Apple's name for their version of it. A trademark is muc= h less > >> of a problem because you can name yours something different. = > > = > > Right, but the only open-source mDNS implementation I know of is Rendez= vous, > > so between that and MS's patents AFAIK it's just another idea without a > > usable open-source implementation for Fedora to even consider shipping.= ... > = > MS's patents? This stuff was invented by Stuart Cheshire, a guy at Apple= , and > has been shipping in Apple products since 1998. If there were going to be > a patent kerfuffle with MS it would have happened already. > = > Cheshire thinks the mDNS implementation is unencumbered and is not only > willing but eager for Linux to adopt it. Now, possibly he's wrong, > but wouldn't it be a good idea to ask him and look into the facts before > muttering "patents" and turning off your brain? Um, turn on *your* brain, and read Patent 6,101,499. If I remember right, Chesire even acknowledge's MS's claims in some of the IETF drafts. = Link-local address configuration has patent claims. The mDNS code has trademark issues. About the only working part of Zeroconf available for Linux without issues AFAIK is OpenSLP, and there's no point in shipping that by itself.... later, chris --===============9143079845921267549==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 2 20:52:43 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2203736192038828398==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:53:57 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303015357.GA14431@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: Pine.GSO.4.58.0403022022310.25035@redfish.gatech.edu --===============2203736192038828398== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Ricker : > Um, turn on *your* brain, and read Patent 6,101,499. If I remember right, > Chesire even acknowledge's MS's claims in some of the IETF drafts. = > Link-local address configuration has patent claims. The mDNS code has > trademark issues. About the only working part of Zeroconf available for > Linux without issues AFAIK is OpenSLP, and there's no point in shipping t= hat > by itself.... I'm on the phone with Cheshire now. We're looking at the patent. He = doesn't believe that it either covers the mDNS technique or is enforceable, and will write a more detailed response to this list. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============2203736192038828398==-- From kaboom at gatech.edu Tue Mar 2 21:04:36 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0933526967227269526==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Ricker To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:07:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: 20040303015357.GA14431@thyrsus.com --===============0933526967227269526== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > I'm on the phone with Cheshire now. We're looking at the patent. He = > doesn't believe that it either covers the mDNS technique or is enforceabl= e, > and will write a more detailed response to this list. It doesn't cover mDNS, it covers some of the link-local addressing. MS has said they'll grant royalty-free licenses provided there's reciprocity (though that obviously has major license choice implications for any code written to implement zeroconf on Linux). later, chris --===============0933526967227269526==-- From esr at thyrsus.com Tue Mar 2 21:24:42 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8884091549405936219==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric S. Raymond To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:25:55 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303022555.GA14769@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: Pine.GSO.4.58.0403022100311.25035@redfish.gatech.edu --===============8884091549405936219== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Ricker : > On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > = > > I'm on the phone with Cheshire now. We're looking at the patent. He = > > doesn't believe that it either covers the mDNS technique or is enforcea= ble, > > and will write a more detailed response to this list. > = > It doesn't cover mDNS, it covers some of the link-local addressing. MS has > said they'll grant royalty-free licenses provided there's reciprocity > (though that obviously has major license choice implications for any code > written to implement zeroconf on Linux). I'll defer to Stuart Cheshire's response on this. -- = Eric S. Raymond --===============8884091549405936219==-- From alexl at redhat.com Wed Mar 3 05:40:15 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3957836057859204514==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alexander Larsson To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:42:44 +0100 Message-ID: <1078310563.29202.153.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: Pine.GSO.4.58.0403021926550.25035@redfish.gatech.edu --===============3957836057859204514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2004-03-03 at 01:29, Chris Ricker wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > = > > Rendezvous is Apple's name for their version of it. A trademark is much= less > > of a problem because you can name yours something different. = > = > Right, but the only open-source mDNS implementation I know of is Rendezvo= us, > so between that and MS's patents AFAIK it's just another idea without a > usable open-source implementation for Fedora to even consider shipping.... There is some initial mDNS implementation work in gnome cvs, in the "gmdns" module. I don't know the status or quality of this implementation, but I hope that eventually I'd somehow be able to use it for the gnome-vfs network:// module (availible from the Nautilus Computer location) so that i can show e.g. local DAV servers (i.e. like osx rendezvous). =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc = alexl(a)redhat.com alla(a)lysator.liu.se = He's an all-American dishevelled master criminal for the 21st century. She'= s a = foxy bisexual safe cracker from a different time and place. They fight crim= e! = --===============3957836057859204514==-- From alan at redhat.com Wed Mar 3 06:22:30 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1100014053101308170==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:24:53 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303112453.GA26421@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 20040303011921.GA14219@thyrsus.com --===============1100014053101308170== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 08:19:21PM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > MS's patents? This stuff was invented by Stuart Cheshire, a guy at Apple= , and > has been shipping in Apple products since 1998. If there were going to be > a patent kerfuffle with MS it would have happened already. And there are those who believe zeroconf (but not the mdns stuff afaik) were invented by microsoft, or apple, and various other possible prior art. Microsoft however claim patent rights on certain parts of the basic zeroconf operation > but wouldn't it be a good idea to ask him and look into the facts before > muttering "patents" and turning off your brain? I talked to him a few years ago. He used to maintain the Linux strip drivers before joining apple, and I talked to him when at apple about some zeroconf related bits. It amuses me therefore that you ask people to "look into the facts" when you've not even done the most basic research yourself. Perhaps you should ask your Aunt Tillie to show you how to use google usenet and list search functions. Alan --===============1100014053101308170==-- From alan at redhat.com Wed Mar 3 06:24:08 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4570816068706629397==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:26:31 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303112631.GB26421@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: Pine.GSO.4.58.0403022022310.25035@redfish.gatech.edu --===============4570816068706629397== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Mar 02, 2004 at 08:34:10PM -0500, Chris Ricker wrote: > Link-local address configuration has patent claims. The mDNS code has > trademark issues. About the only working part of Zeroconf available for No trademark issue that seems to matter, someone just needs to write an nss_mdns module and care enough to do it. = --===============4570816068706629397==-- From alan at redhat.com Wed Mar 3 07:36:19 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5036349821660680084==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alan Cox To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 07:38:42 -0500 Message-ID: <20040303123842.GA19811@devserv.devel.redhat.com> In-Reply-To: 1078310563.29202.153.camel@localhost.localdomain --===============5036349821660680084== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:42:44AM +0100, Alexander Larsson wrote: > implementation, but I hope that eventually I'd somehow be able to use it > for the gnome-vfs network:// module (availible from the Nautilus > Computer location) so that i can show e.g. local DAV servers (i.e. like > osx rendezvous). DAV support in the newer nautilus would be nice (in 2.4 its basically broken and in 2.5 rawhide it doesnt work at all). I noticed neon is now in our package list so does that mean there are plans to get DAV done right into the tree ? --===============5036349821660680084==-- From alexl at redhat.com Thu Mar 4 03:30:44 2004 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1814802247619504226==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Alexander Larsson To: devel at lists.fedoraproject.org Subject: Re: In the service of Aunt Tillie -- Zero-configuration networking Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 09:33:15 +0100 Message-ID: <1078389194.29202.182.camel@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: 20040303123842.GA19811@devserv.devel.redhat.com --===============1814802247619504226== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2004-03-03 at 13:38, Alan Cox wrote: > On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:42:44AM +0100, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > implementation, but I hope that eventually I'd somehow be able to use it > > for the gnome-vfs network:// module (availible from the Nautilus > > Computer location) so that i can show e.g. local DAV servers (i.e. like > > osx rendezvous). > = > DAV support in the newer nautilus would be nice (in 2.4 its basically > broken and in 2.5 rawhide it doesnt work at all). I noticed neon is now > in our package list so does that mean there are plans to get DAV done > right into the tree ? There is some initial work on a neon-based http backend for gnome-vfs. Its not gonna happen in gnome 2.6 though. =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc = alexl(a)redhat.com alla(a)lysator.liu.se = He's a world-famous Catholic waffle chef on the run. She's a high-kicking = Buddhist single mother in the wrong place at the wrong time. They fight cri= me! = --===============1814802247619504226==--