On 2013-03-20 06:35, desktop-request@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
Send desktop mailing list submissions to desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org
Another alternative (Hi I am new here) is set the installer for default to logo on startup and login screens. If the Admin is insistent to lock the system down for his/her company or org's use then at root desktop include a mod to the display settings so the administrator can have the choice of logo show / not show when running the mass-install.
both of these suggestions have been done before....the mod I first saw in a Free BSD KDE desktop environment, and simple user configs allowed during installation in Grub.
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Allan Day)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Allan Day)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Ryan Lerch)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Debarshi Ray)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Cosimo Cecchi)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Ryan Lerch)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Cosimo Cecchi)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Cosimo Cecchi)
- Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen (Máirín Duffy)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?= duffy@fedoraproject.org Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:34:02 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 1
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 07:28:27 AM EDT, Allan Day wrote:
A bit of background:
The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors. First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen: it's a prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the user list). Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence. We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements are the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to it, making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the parts of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user list). Third and finally, having the logo in its previous position limited the size to which the user list could grow when there are a large number of users.
My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look great. The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of these dimensions.
The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the top-left hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of including a logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor. However, the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about this proposal.
It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that this is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos onto products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote positive associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be. If you diminish the user experience through the addition of a logo, then you actually harm the brand: you make the product worse, and in the process you make it less likely that people will think good things about your brand.
I suppose we are at a complete impasse then; to me it is completely unacceptable to completely debrand the operating system. You do realize there are usability implications with that - namely, people don't even know what they are running in order to obtain help with it or even identify the type of system they are using.
You have basically posed here that there is no way you will accept a logo on the login screen. How is a compromise possible then?
~m
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?= duffy@fedoraproject.org Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:36:47 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 51485BDF.6010007@fedoraproject.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 2
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 08:34:02 AM EDT, M=C3=A1ir=C3=ADn Duffy wrote:
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 07:28:27 AM EDT, Allan Day wrote:
A bit of background:
The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors. First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen: it's a prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the user list). Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence. We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements are the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to it, making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the parts of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user list). Third and finally, having the logo in its previous position limited the size to which the user list could grow when there are a large number of users.
My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look great. The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of these dimensions.
The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the top-left hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of including a logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor. However, the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about this proposal.
It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that this is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos onto products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote positive associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be. If you diminish the user experience through the addition of a logo, then you actually harm the brand: you make the product worse, and in the process you make it less likely that people will think good things about your brand.
I suppose we are at a complete impasse then; to me it is completely unacceptable to completely debrand the operating system. You do realize there are usability implications with that - namely, people don't even know what they are running in order to obtain help with it or even identify the type of system they are using.
You have basically posed here that there is no way you will accept a logo on the login screen. How is a compromise possible then?
http://macservicesact.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/New-Mac-OS-X-Lion= -Login-Screen.jpg
I've never seen this screen before, and I am dismayingly stricken by=20 the similarly except for the fact that Apple has given their logo an=20 approximately 50 x 50 px presence centered above the user login dialog.
~m
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Allan Day allanpday@gmail.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To: =?ISO-8859-1?B?TeFpcu1uIER1ZmZ5?= duffy@fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:46:14 +0000 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: CAC_wn4vCBdA8MQGr+9OMbToS4d16FhT2oNFnH3Zy0JOK8nWUvA@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 3
M=E1ir=EDn Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
I suppose we are at a complete impasse then; to me it is completely unacceptable to completely debrand the operating system. You do realize there are usability implications with that - namely, people don't even know what they are running in order to obtain help with it or even identify the type of system they are using.
You have basically posed here that there is no way you will accept a logo on the login screen. How is a compromise possible then?
I was trying to explain my position and my concerns. I'm happy to explore the options. However, I would be much more comfortable doing that in an upstream setting.
Allan
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Allan Day allanpday@gmail.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org 51485BDF.6010007@fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: 51485BDF.6010007@fedoraproject.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:50:28 +0000 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: CAC_wn4tj3Di5BKGjH1=PMaxi6uM-M+47izZ76_cYr9e1hbMTfQ@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 4
M=E1ir=EDn Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
http://macservicesact.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/New-Mac-OS-X-Lion=
-Login-Screen.jpg
I've never seen this screen before, and I am dismayingly stricken by the similarly except for the fact that Apple has given their logo an approximately 50 x 50 px presence centered above the user login dialog.
Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. ;)
One thing that is noticeable about this design is that they have made the logo less visually prominent by giving it an embossed appearance. Given the concern to reduce the attention grabbing nature of the logo, this certainly has merit.
Allan
IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ryan Lerch rlerch@redhat.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:02:26 -0400 Reply-To: rlerch@redhat.com, Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 5
On 03/19/2013 07:28 AM, Allan Day wrote:
MáirÃn Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Mon 18 Mar 2013 05:54:42 PM EDT, Clyde E. Kunkel wrote:
I am not a programmer, but, that said, why can't you put a decent sized fedora logo above the users section. If the number of users exceeds a certain number, then create a window with a slider bar on the right. This just does not seem like rocket science. :-)
Isn't GNOME shell primarily designed as a single-user experience?
I think it's a good idea to special case the single user case. We still want to provide a good multi-user experience though.
How frequently are we expecting there to be a case where there are enough users in the list for a logo placed as suggested by Ray in comment 13 (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=694912#c13)
Even if it is a corner case, it's something we should handle, I think.
I see a 'solution' looking for a problem here. The problem isn't the Fedora logo looks bad when given exactly 9 pixels of vertical space (what logo would?) The problem is... I'm really not sure what. Can you help me understand? I see this multi-monitor use related bug has been cited:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=685852
It says "The distribution logo is displayed in the middle above the list. This visually clashes with the layout of the rest of the login screen. It would be better to place the logo in the top-left hand corner of the screen, in the top bar. "
There is no screenshot, so I am unsure of how it 'visually clashes' with the rest of the login screen, and I'm not sure what it has to do with multi-monitor, if anything. A GNOME wiki link is provided, which I clicked on (https://live.gnome.org/Boston2012/Multimonitor) and found the exact same text:
"The distribution logo is displayed in the middle above the list. This visually clashes with the layout of the rest of the login screen. It would be better to place the logo in the top-left hand corner of the screen, in the top bar. #685852"
Please help me understand what exactly the problem is here?
A bit of background:
The change during the 3.8 cycle was based on a couple of factors. First, the logo interfered with the layout of the login screen: it's a prominent visual presence that creates another anchor point which conflicts with the other elements on the screen (ie. it is horizontally centered, which clashes with the anchor points in the user list).
I agree with this. The alignment of the usernames to the left while the full logo (with both logo and logotype) was centre aligned did not really work.
However were any other alignment / layout options considered here? if we reduced the design to just the logo, you lose some of the interference between the anchor points of the logo and the userlist layout:
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/justthelogo.png
Or could the usernames be presented in a out horizontal layout? (although, this one makes the login screen very close to the OSX designs)
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/horizontal.png
Second, the logo was felt to be a distracting presence. We've made an effort to make sure that the most important elements are the most visually prominent, and we want the primary interaction points to be the ones that jump out at you. The logo was a strong visual presence placed above the user list: this drew the eye to it, making it the first thing you saw, and distracted you from the parts of the screen that are actually useful to the user (ie. the user list).
Were any tests done to prove the hypothesis that the placement of the old fedora logo was distracting users from the interactive parts of the screen? If that was the issue that was trying to be solved, was any thought given to putting the logo towards the bottom of the screen?
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logobottom.png
My preference is to focus the user interface on providing the best user experience possible. That means prioritising the things that people need to use, reducing distraction and making the UI look great. The addition of a logo diminishes the user experience along each of these dimensions.
The proposal to replace the logo with a simple string in the top-left hand corner is intended to mitigate the negative impact of including a logo while retaining a visual reference to the distributor. However, the usability issue that Ryan brought up is a valid concern about this proposal.
It has been suggested that not including the logo somehow weakens distributions' ability to brand their products. My view is that this is not the case. Branding is not the practice of slapping logos onto products. Instead, it is the attempt to instill and promote positive associations with the brand. The best way to do that, in my opinion, is to make the user experience as good as it can possibly be.
True, you want to promote positive associations with a brand. And if the logo is too prominent, or there are too many logos, you end up diluting the brand. If all text is bold, nothing stands out.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/logotoomany.png
However if the mark of the brand is *nowhere* you are merely promoting positive associations with a generic grey background.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/nologo.png
I am not suggesting that we slap logo(s) over everything, simply include a clear definition to the user of brand at the point they start using the system.
regards, ryanlerch
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?= duffy@fedoraproject.org Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To: Allan Day allanpday@gmail.com References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4vCBdA8MQGr+9OMbToS4d16FhT2oNFnH3Zy0JOK8nWUvA@mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: CAC_wn4vCBdA8MQGr+9OMbToS4d16FhT2oNFnH3Zy0JOK8nWUvA@mail.gmail.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:17:44 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 51487388.2070008@fedoraproject.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 6
On 03/19/2013 08:46 AM, Allan Day wrote:
I was trying to explain my position and my concerns. I'm happy to explore the options. However, I would be much more comfortable doing that in an upstream setting.
Why don't we explore the options right here in the affected community? I am not a member of the GNOME community anymore. We are both members of the Fedora community.
~m
Why don't we explore the options right here in the affected community?
Fedora is not the only consumer of GNOME.
am not a member of the GNOME community anymore.
What does that mean? You are even listed at http://www.gnome.org/foundation/membership/
Cheers, Debarshi
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cosimo Cecchi ccecchi@redhat.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rlerch@redhat.com, Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com In-Reply-To: 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:25:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 8
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 09:02 -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote:
However if the mark of the brand is *nowhere* you are merely promoting positive associations with a generic grey background.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/nologo.png
I am not suggesting that we slap logo(s) over everything, simply include a clear definition to the user of brand at the point they start using the system.
Genuine question: why do you feel the login screen is a good place to promote any kind of positive brand association? All I usually want to do from that screen is to get out of it as quickly and seamlessly as possible. Under this perspective, having it plainly unbranded and focused exclusively on its task — get me to my session and my work — makes sense to me.
Cosimo
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?= duffy@fedoraproject.org Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 51485B3A.80509@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4vCBdA8MQGr+9OMbToS4d16FhT2oNFnH3Zy0JOK8nWUvA@mail.gmail.com 51487388.2070008@fedoraproject.org 20130319142519.GJ43026@arati.lostca.se In-Reply-To: 20130319142519.GJ43026@arati.lostca.se Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:49:33 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 51487AFD.4070005@fedoraproject.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 9
On 03/19/2013 10:25 AM, Debarshi Ray wrote:
Why don't we explore the options right here in the affected community?
Fedora is not the only consumer of GNOME.
It's a pretty important one, don't you think?
am not a member of the GNOME community anymore.
What does that mean? You are even listed at http://www.gnome.org/foundation/membership/
I delisted my blog from planet gnome well over a year ago and withdrew my foundation membership - I should *not* be on that list.
Either way, my point is let's not spend a week talking about how we need to talk about this and instead talk about it on neutral ground everyone is comfortable with.
~m
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ryan Lerch rlerch@redhat.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To: Cosimo Cecchi ccecchi@redhat.com References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 In-Reply-To: 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 10:59:33 -0400 Reply-To: rlerch@redhat.com, Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 51487D55.2050206@redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 10
On 03/19/2013 10:25 AM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 09:02 -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote:
However if the mark of the brand is *nowhere* you are merely promoting positive associations with a generic grey background.
http://ryanlerch.fedorapeople.org/login/nologo.png
I am not suggesting that we slap logo(s) over everything, simply include a clear definition to the user of brand at the point they start using the system.
Genuine question: why do you feel the login screen is a good place to promote any kind of positive brand association?
This is the entry point to the Fedora user experience. Having the logo on the sign in screen is conceptually similar to having a sign on the door.
All I usually want to do from that screen is to get out of it as quickly and seamlessly as possible. Under this perspective, having it plainly unbranded and focused exclusively on its task — get me to my session and my work — makes sense to me.
Cosimo
From a usability perspective, I fail to see how a subtle logo here makes it harder to use. Having some user testing the hypothesis that a logo reduces productivity of the login screen would be a good place to start before removing whole elements.
Finally, a question. If we don't have the sign the doorway to Fedora, then where should the name of the brand be presented? I think it would be a step backwards to have the OS brand mark polluting the main interface of the desktop that a user stares at for 8 hours a day.
regards, ryanlerch
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cosimo Cecchi ccecchi@redhat.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To: rlerch@redhat.com References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 51487D55.2050206@redhat.com In-Reply-To: 51487D55.2050206@redhat.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:22:51 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 1363710171.1780.58.camel@x201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 11
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 10:59 -0400, Ryan Lerch wrote:
Genuine question: why do you feel the login screen is a good place
to
promote any kind of positive brand association?
This is the entry point to the Fedora user experience. Having the logo on the sign in screen is conceptually similar to having a sign on the door.
If you want to follow this analogy, it would be more as if the door of my house had a permanent logo/sign of the realtor agency I bought it from...
All I usually want to do from that screen is to get out of it as quickly and seamlessly as possible. Under this perspective, having it plainly unbranded and focused exclusively on its task — get me to my session and my
work —
makes sense to me.
Cosimo
From a usability perspective, I fail to see how a subtle logo here makes it harder to use. Having some user testing the hypothesis that a logo reduces productivity of the login screen would be a good place to start before removing whole elements.
I didn't say it makes it *harder* to use. To my taste, it just feels redundant/distracting and maybe a bit cheesy though.
Finally, a question. If we don't have the sign the doorway to Fedora, then where should the name of the brand be presented? I think it would be a step backwards to have the OS brand mark polluting the main interface of the desktop that a user stares at for 8 hours a day.
Good question; having it always visible in the desktop is a huge step backwards of course (and we agree it's a non starter). My personal opinion is it's debatable you should present it at all, since the user knows what it downloaded and installed himself.
Who is supposed to look at that doorway and from where? In other words, I don't think I can have an answer to that question unless it's very clear who's the intended target of that branding.
Cheers, Cosimo
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?= duffy@fedoraproject.org Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 51487D55.2050206@redhat.com 1363710171.1780.58.camel@x201 In-Reply-To: 1363710171.1780.58.camel@x201 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 12:26:20 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 514891AC.9040101@fedoraproject.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 12
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 12:22:51 PM EDT, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
Good question; having it always visible in the desktop is a huge step backwards of course (and we agree it's a non starter). My personal opinion is it's debatable you should present it at all, since the user knows what it downloaded and installed himself.
Let's be fair - in a multi-situation, it is necessarily that only one of the users involved installed the system. In a computer lab situation or in an employee preload situation (maybe the latter wouldn't be Fedora, but RHEL) the users did not install it themselves.
~m
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cosimo Cecchi ccecchi@redhat.com Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 51487D55.2050206@redhat.com 1363710171.1780.58.camel@x201 514891AC.9040101@fedoraproject.org In-Reply-To: 514891AC.9040101@fedoraproject.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 1363712966.1780.70.camel@x201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 13
On Tue, 2013-03-19 at 12:26 -0400, MáirÃn Duffy wrote:
On Tue 19 Mar 2013 12:22:51 PM EDT, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
Good question; having it always visible in the desktop is a huge
step
backwards of course (and we agree it's a non starter). My personal opinion is it's debatable you should present it at all, since the
user
knows what it downloaded and installed himself.
Let's be fair - in a multi-situation, it is necessarily that only one of the users involved installed the system. In a computer lab situation or in an employee preload situation (maybe the latter wouldn't be Fedora, but RHEL) the users did not install it themselves.
That's true. But in a preloaded/locked-down situation where the user doesn't have full, or any, control on the software installed on the machine the requirements might be different:
- the logo would likely not be the stock distributor's one, but one
identifying the organization providing that leased/temporary service to the user. I can think of a number of reasons related to billing/support/accountability as of why this makes a lot more sense than in the "personal use" case.
- it's still unclear to me the benefit to the user and/or the
distributor in showing a logo in that scenario. For example, if the machine has a corporate lockdown, that fact alone might discourage users trying to install the same OS on another personal machine. This is in my opinion related to the question I was asking in the second part of my above previous message.
Cheers, Cosimo
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: =?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?= duffy@fedoraproject.org Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org To: Cosimo Cecchi ccecchi@redhat.com References: 514748D6.5060107@redhat.com CAC_wn4sd7DF-AAeVODmbmLewG0jQCigV1Hw=DZFHAFYwvqY9Xw@mail.gmail.com 51474F3C.8030603@redhat.com 5147586B.7010009@redhat.com CAC_wn4v8MDKHNN2j0D75ELBLsRW1T6wcN1hENAUi7r0AcMU08Q@mail.gmail.com 51478D22.4030508@verizon.net 5147918E.1000802@fedoraproject.org CAC_wn4tX6YLj=-gX-OkMU9d3U2y5RZMd09EgfnEfCaueZ3gMqw@mail.gmail.com 514861E2.7040903@redhat.com 1363703142.1780.14.camel@x201 51487D55.2050206@redhat.com 1363710171.1780.58.camel@x201 514891AC.9040101@fedoraproject.org 1363712966.1780.70.camel@x201 In-Reply-To: 1363712966.1780.70.camel@x201 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 13:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop desktop@lists.fedoraproject.org Message-ID: 5148A156.1070806@fedoraproject.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Subject: Re: Fedora Logo on the login screen Message: 14
On 03/19/2013 01:09 PM, Cosimo Cecchi wrote:
- the logo would likely not be the stock distributor's one, but one
identifying the organization providing that leased/temporary service to the user. I can think of a number of reasons related to billing/support/accountability as of why this makes a lot more sense than in the "personal use" case.
At least with RHEL, IANAL but I'm not quite sure legally it's okay to strip all RH logos from the distribution without additional burdens such as compliance with the GPL in making the source available and other requirements under Red Hat Trademark guidelines and potential impact to your support contract, see http://www.redhat.com/about/mediarelations/trademark.html
- it's still unclear to me the benefit to the user and/or the
distributor in showing a logo in that scenario. For example, if the machine has a corporate lockdown, that fact alone might discourage users trying to install the same OS on another personal machine. This is in my opinion related to the question I was asking in the second part of my above previous message.
I'm not really sure it's a major concern that users would feel discouraged to install Fedora or RHEL on their home machine because they experienced it on a corporate install as locked down - RHEL is not meant for use on home machines, and it's questionable whether or not an organization (I am assuming campus / nonprofit) that preloaded *Fedora* as a desktop would lock it down as much as in a more corporate situation since these type of organizations typically have less resources and more flexible policies around computing. This seems a very weak argument to me, and certainly the 'solution' of hiding the identity of the OS is an odd way to solve this 'problem.'
~m
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