On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:15 PM, Debarshi Ray <rishi.is(a)lostca.se> wrote:
Hey,
On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 08:25:43AM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote:
> Who is we?
A bunch of Fedora contributors who also happen to be part of upstream
GNOME.
I can understand that another subset of Fedora contributors might have
a different opinion. I can also imagine another subsection of Fedora
contributors with a GNOME background also having a different opinion
that 'us', although I haven't seen an example of that on this topic.
I think it is safe to say that 'we' stands for the group who do not
want more branding in the shell chrome.
> Also, there's no onus on either party here. Fedora Workstation is
> Fedora.
But 'we' are Fedora too!
You are. My comment wasn't about people. It was about the specific
deliverables.
> GNOME upstream is GNOME upstream. Each can chose to display
> logos or not according to what they believe best suits them.
We will be well served if we did not draw lines that. I might be
working on GNOME, but I am just as much a Fedora contributor as
anybody else [1] who works on KDE or the kernel or anything else.
I want the Fedora brand to succeed too.
It is disappointing to see that whenever someone with a GNOME
background expresses an opinion or liking, it is swept aside with a
'oh, but this is not GNOME, we are Fedora'. A very big chunk of the
work that goes into building Fedora Workstation happens upstream,
upstream GNOME developers hold Fedora in high regard, and there are a
good number of people who participate in both communities. Decisions
that 'we' take upstream are taken with the best interests of Fedora at
heart. While that does not mean that 'we' are infallible and
unaccountable [2], it is fair to expect some amount of mutual trust
and respect.
I think perhaps you are casting generalities from the past onto many
topics here. Branding is a difficult topic because it deviates from
upstream by necessity. There's no other way to do it.
As for GNOME people presenting opinions and likings, I for one think
it's wonderful and I very much do not sweep them aside. In fact, I've
been more than willing to listen because we very much need upstreams
to be involved in Fedora for it to be successful. That doesn't mean
those opinions will always win out, nor does it mean they are swept
aside without thought or consideration.
Constantly repeating 'this is Fedora, that is GNOME' only
breeds
mistrust and alienates people.
I'll be frank. The mistrust and alienation is very real, and it is on
both sides. Some people view GNOME as an echo chamber. Some people
view Fedora as a bunch of clueless packaging nerds that have no taste
or design sensibilities. The truth lies very much in between. I
think Workstation has proven, in my opinion, that both sides can work
together to make something that is a great blend of things to fit the
Fedora project. But if we're going to make that sustainable, we need
to move on from the past and realize that differences of opinions are
OK, and being "right" is often worse than coming to a compromise.
josh