On Feb 4, 2014 8:06 AM, "Alexander GS" <alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2014-02-04 at 07:55 -0700, Pete Travis wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2014 7:23 AM, "Alexander GS" <alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2014-02-03 at 18:31 +0100, drago01 wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Alex GS <alxgrtnstrngl@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > aruiz wrote:
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Agreed. Can you point to any single GNOME feature that is
> > tailored
> > > > > specifically for tablet devices?
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Gnome Shell is a feature/product/package focused on mobile
> > interaction for
> > > > > hybrids and touch enabled devices including tablets.
> > > >
> > > > Argument by repetition does not work. You stated that before and
> > got a
> > > > response that this is not the case and that you should come up
> > with
> > > > reasons where you got that from. You simply repeated your
> > statement.
> > > > This is pointless.
> > >
> > > aruiz wrote:
> > > > > Agreed. Can you point to any single GNOME feature that is
> > tailored
> > > > > specifically for tablet devices?
> > >
> > > I wanted to address this question because I think it's crucial to
> > > understand why GNOME 2 is the only suitable default choice for
> > Fedora
> > > Workstation.
> > >
> > > Let's revisit the original GNOME 3 (GNOME Shell) design document:
> > >
> > > Problem Definition:
> > >
> > > "The GNOME Project released version 2.0 of the GNOME Desktop in June
> > > 2002. It was an important milestone. In the years since then, the
> > > developer community has continually and incrementally improved the
> > > experience while learning a great deal about what worked and what
> > > didn't. The entire personal computing ecosystem has been changing
> > too -
> > > partly due to a number of new and disruptive technologies. While we
> > > won't dwell on the particulars of those changes it is important to
> > note
> > > that there is a growing consensus in the GNOME developer community
> > that
> > > we needed to make a leap forward in order to fix many of the flaws
> > in
> > > our designs and to generally bring a lot more awesome into the user
> > > experience."
> > >
> > >
> > https://people.gnome.org/~mccann/shell/design/GNOME_Shell-20091114.pdf
> > >
> > > The key phrases in the entire document:
> > >
> > > "The entire personal computing ecosystem has been changing too -
> > partly
> > > due to a number of new and disruptive technologies."
> > >
> > > - and -
> > >
> > > "we needed to make a leap forward in order to fix many of the flaws
> > in
> > > our designs."
> > >
> > > Mac OS X release back in 2001.
> > >
> > > GNOME 2 released in 2002.
> > >
> > > Apple released the iPhone back in 2007.
> > >
> > > This document was created back in 2009.
> > >
> > > The "new and disruptive technologies" were mobile devices such as
> > the
> > > iPhone. GNOME Shell itself was created as a reaction to the iPhone
> > and
> > > mobile form-factors.  Clearly the design has that in mind with the
> > focus
> > > on touch-screen interaction.
> > >
> > > The "flaws in our designs" refers to the traditional desktop
> > workstation
> > > designs found in GNOME 2 that they no longer felt could address the
> > new
> > > mobile form-factors that were just launched.
> > >
> > > Apple released the iPad back in 2010.
> > >
> > > GNOME 3 was released in 2011.
> > >
> > > Let's look at that in perspective. Mac OS X (10.xx) was released in
> > 2001
> > > and has been in a continually state of development and refinement
> > for
> > > over 13 years. If GNOME was Apple then GNOME 2 would still be in
> > active
> > > development up to at least 2015. The current version of GNOME 2
> > would
> > > probably be 2.11 or 2.12.
> > >
> > > This is why GNOME 2 is the only suitable desktop for Fedora
> > Workstation.
> > > It's obvious that GNOME 3 (GNOME Shell) wasn't just created for
> > > traditional workstations but was an early attempt at a convergence
> > > concept to meld mobile and desktop interfaces together. This
> > convergence
> > > concept is still highly experimental and not yet mature.  See
> > Ubuntu's
> > > Unity and Microsoft's Windows 8.
> > >
> > > GNOME 2 is a fully mature and realized traditional desktop
> > workstation
> > > concept, battle tested and with wide general appeal to fit the
> > > requirements of the Workstation PRD:
> > >
> > > "We want to create a stable, integrated, polished and user friendly
> > > system that can appeal to a wide general audience."
> > >
> > > "Case 3: Small Company Developer"
> > >
> > > "Case 4: Developer in a Large Organization"
> > >
> > > "Or the work we are doing to provide a high performance graphics
> > > workstation would be useful to people who want a linux gaming PC."
> > >
> > > "Work towards standardizing and unifying the Linux desktop space"
> > >
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Workstation_PRD
> > >
> > > If for some reason it's too controversial to make MATE the default
> > then
> > > you should give the user choice at the installation phase of GNOME
> > > Shell, MATE or KDE as per the following requirement in the
> > Workstation
> > > PRD.
> > >
> > > "we want to allow developers to use the tools they prefer for their
> > > application development yet make them all feel like a natural fit
> > into
> > > our integrated desktop experience."
> > >
> > > Key phrase: "we want to allow developers to use the tools they
> > prefer
> > > for their application development"
> > >
> > > Desktop environments are crucial to developer work-flows and and
> > > allowing the developer to pick from a limited list of supported
> > options
> > > at install as stated above (GNOME Shell, MATE, KDE) is the best way
> > to
> > > optimize that.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hi, question from a community member just trying to follow along.
> >
> > Can you provide a citation ( mailing list archive, maybe ) of the
> > discussion within the MATE project that led to MATE's decision to
> > request inclusion in the GNOME Foundation?
> >
> > --Pete
> >
>
> There was no such decision or discussion.  We were discussing the
> default desktop for the Fedora Workstation project.  It was my own
> individual proposal that MATE is the default desktop.  I was discussing
> details on how that could be achieved and one idea was to merge MATE
> into GNOME.  This does not represent the view of either MATE, GNOME or
> Fedora, these are my personal views.
>
> --

Okay, thank you for clarifying your position.  If you haven't already, it would be a good idea to take the proposal to the MATE folks as well, if you want it to get traction.

-- Pete