On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 21:28 +0200, Christopher Brown wrote:
> On 24/08/07, Adam Jackson <ajackson(a)redhat.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 19:15 +0200, Martin Sourada wrote:
> > Hi,
> > It's all about picking default settings new users wish.
> Imagine a user
> > who is coming from Windows to Fedora, but he has no clue how
> > works. It would greatly help him if the linux behaved to
> some extent
> > similar to Windows - meaning applications look (themes),
> > buttons layout (in this case same), menu layout, keyboard
> shortcuts etc.
> > The same for users coming from Mac OS and for users used to
> Gnome and
> > switching to KDE and opposite way. The idea is that user
> selects what he
> > wants his desktop resemble, and then the usage of the
> desktop would be
> > more intuitive to him.
> Bzzt, logical fallacy. Read about the uncanny valley, then
> apply that
> lesson to your argument. Point for point emulation is not
> technically infeasible, it's also a really really bad idea.
> I agree. As an aside, I found the uncanny valley article on wikipedia
> if you're interested. However much you skin over GNOME or KDE to make
> them look like inferior OS's with greater market penetration, it
> really is pretty pointless. This creates restrictions on UI design and
> people waste time developing like-for-like applications simply in
> order to mimic The Control Panel or My Network Places.
> System>Administration or Places>Network is faster and simpler and
> after is easily picked up. I have yet to introduce anyone to GNOME and
> they have failed to grasp the new layout - quite the reverse - the
> simplicity is often seen as a key benefit.
Ok, I had a sneaky feeling that it is against the philosophy, but wanted
to mention it nevertheless. I wasn't talking about emulation (even
though it might look so), I was talking about making the process of
transitioning to other system easier. I use gnome, I like almost
everything about it, but I am not the target audience here. Let's say it
this way, comparing KDE and GNOME. You are happy GNOME user but want to
try KDE, for whatever reason, so you'd actually like it to behave like
you are used to (to certain extent). Like having two panels, three
menus, similar looking widget set, same keyboard shortcuts. Nothing
more, the applications would still be KDE, the kontrol center still be
from KDE, etc.
More generally I am talking about a utility that could ease the job of
doing this. You can set pretty much in today's gnome or kde to be it
more friendly to users used to something different, but it'll still be
KDE and GNOME. I'd like those users to have easy utility, to ease their
start - i.e. to set for them the basic things, so that they will both
learn new behaviour, but also use some of the already learnt.
It would be maybe even more appreciated by dual booters...
And I was talking about CHOICE. If user wants why not help him. If he
wants to try GNOME with all its defaults, let him do that as well.
But anyway, you seem to be against that, so I will not pursue it
further. It is probably a bad idea (and after reading the wikipedia
article about the uncanny valley it seems even worse than that)...
Le mercredi 22 août 2007 à 15:49 -0400, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
> It still needs:
> - CD boot menu
> - firstboot banner & splash (could reuse anaconda splash)
> - Normal boot menu background (grub)
> - RHGB theme
> - GDM theme (we can do a graphical greeter if we provide the theme so i
> can write it)
> - if we need splashes for gnome and KDE, the anaconda splash design
> should work well with minor modifications
Please check with the desktop group, I think at least some of those
won't be needed by the new F8 boot process
Raw notes. Page lives here:
Please add yourself if you were there and add yourself to the main
desktop page (which is not complete yet)
= 2007 Aug 22 Desktop Meeting =
== Present ==
* Chris Aillon
* David Zeuthen
* Christopher Blizzard
* Ray Strode
* Jesse Keating
* Colin Walters
* others (?)
=== Agenda ===
=== Action Items ===
* Blizzard to add scope + goals to SIG in the wiki
* Blizzard to clean up SIG and Desktop pages
* David Zeuthen to clarify action items
* Adam Jackson / Chris Aillon to finish bootchart package process +
* Colin Walters to work with David Zeuthen on clarifying the package
set for the desktop spin and pushing into the livecd-creation repo
=== Previous Week's Action Items ===
* Adam was supposed to package up boot chart
* In Progress - has packages and they are in review. Chris Aillon is
* David Zeuthen was supposed to work on the clock applet that changes
* In Progress
* Blizzard was supposed to clean up the web pages and add scope +
decision making to the SIG page
* In Progress
=== Desktop page vs SIG Page ===
* Blizzard created the top level Desktop page in an attempt to make
sure that things weren't buried
* Confusing since we have shared information between the two
* Need to consolidate and clarify that the Desktop page is the what and
the SIG page is the who
* Up to Blizzard to fix.
=== Where to send patches and changes? ===
* Avoid process, mailing list isn't an approval process
* Just inform the mailing list if you can
* Note that this project is for the "Fedora Desktop spin" which is not
the normal Fedora spin. More freedom to make changes and set reasonable
desktop defaults. Different than Fedora for servers.
* Main get-fedora page will have to emphasize this
* Probably won't include package forks but is mostly setting reasonable
* Will have to work with package maintainers to make sure that those
defaults are at least available
* PolicyKit and sudo style activation of system services (no root
* NetworkManager by default
* Lots of fear of divergence but needs to balance with ability to take
risks and experiment
* Probably a lot of changes that we need for Fedora as a whole at some
* Will work with the board if we need package divergence and work
through any possible trademark or project issues
=== Workflow model ===
* Walters: want to move away from small fiefdom model
* Example: things that require a lot of changes all the way across the
distribution like sudo style access require lots of small changes to a
lot of packages so we can't just work in silos
* Use a post with a patch for changes instead of just going through
single bugs + owners
* Want to avoid forking wherever possible
* Try do do things in the post-install stage with defaults instead
* Main points: encourage experimentation and move quickly?
* David Zeuthen: Main point is to have defaults that are good for
desktop that might not work well on servers
* Walters: Main point is to make sure that the desktop folks are in
control of the experience
* Don't worry about package forking, if we have to worry about that
we'll work with the board and others on that topic later
=== Last Week's Action Items ===
* David Zeuthen still working on time zone applet
* Adam Jackson has packaged boot camp, Chris Aillon is reviewing (lots
of discussion of details)
* Blizzard did some work but not on goals + scope
=== Comps Location for Desktop Spin ===
* Desktop spin lives in the livecd-tools git repo right now
* co-owned by David Zeuthen and Colin Walters
* They will discuss what changes they want to make on the mailing list
* "Low hanging fruit" thread was supposed to be the start of the
changes but it got out of control pretty quickly
* Jesse points out that there's only one week to feature freeze :)
=== Responsibility of fixes/changes in Desktop vs. Regular Spin? ===
* How do we track the difference? Something in /etc/fedora-release
* Hard to diverge due to crappy tool set
* Can't tell where bug reports come from
* Lots and lots of discussion (ask the user, detect in bugzilla, write
to a file, etc)
* Have to move this to next week if that's possible
=== Big Root Password Discussion ===
* extra password that's not needed on a desktop system
* want to move to a policykit based solution
* discussion of sudo + policykit system would work
=== Next Week ===
* Follow up on action items
* From Jesse: How to get rid of firstboot screens?
There have been some discussions on fedora-desktop-list recently about
making the desktop livecd spin a better desktop. We (the RH desktop
team) would like to take this on, by taking "editorial control" of the
desktop livecd spin, and transforming it into an awesome desktop.
We'd like to start holding regular public irc meetings -- "meet the
desktop team", if you want. The official form in which this happens in
Fedora is in a SIG, so we will form a "Desktop SIG" and invite
interested members of the Fedora community to work with us on making
the Fedora desktop spin the best desktop in its class.
The first meeting is going to take place in the #fedora-meeting
irc channel on Freenode, Wednesday, 18:00-19:00 UTC (2pm-3pm EDT)
Proposed agenda for the first meeting:
- Organizational questions
- Goals and scope of the Desktop SIG
- Concrete plans for the F8 desktop spin
- Longer-term plans
We have put our ideas for second agenda item
up at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop
Hope to see you tomorrow,
Are there any plans on including speech recognition in Fedora? (using
sphinx4 and at-spi maybe)
I'm looking only to simple commands translation (click, page up, close
window...), not full speech recognition.
While Tracker has always been faster than Beagle and without the memory
leaks, previous versions were lacking in features. Tracker 0.6
(http://jamiemcc.livejournal.com/8837.html) has a number of improvements
making it more or less reached feature parity with Beagle which we
dropped out by default in Fedora 7. Tracker is also going to be the
default in the next version of Ubuntu.
What do folks think about installing and enabling Tracker by default in
Some people may not know that in Fedora 7, there was a difference
between the DVD and the Live CD. What happened is (as far as I
understand it) David Zeuthen took a look at things, and exercised a bit
of editorial control by using the kickstart file - ship NetworkManager
enabled by default, for example. This is exactly what Fedora as a
desktop needs; a place for people who care about the experience as a
desktop to do those quick fixes that may be hard to change in the Fedora
So, following a quick huddle with a few people from the Red Hat desktop
team, we decided to make this LiveCD kickstart file a bit more of a
project. Actually, the project already exists:
So this mail is just to say that this project exists (and I know a lot
of people didn't know about the difference), and will move forward. For
Fedora 8, it would make sense to more prominently distinguish this
version as the Desktop version.
Ideally of course, this project will be minimal - for example, the work
to make NetworkManager usable on servers makes sense, and should
Linux and especially Fedora is more and more used as a desktop operating
system for end users.
This creates new conditions how Fedora should look like. On the one hand, there are
administrators, which want to have powerful GUI configuration applications.
On the other hand, there is a new aspect, the end user. He probably does not know what IPv6 and other things are and just wants to configure a printer or
network or the yum frontend. All in one, system administrators have other exceptations than end users.
I am of the opinion that we somehow have to make both groups happy or make end users more happy without bothering system administrators.
One way is to create seperate configuration tools for both groups, but I do not like that (SuSE does it slightly like that: YaST for administrators,
the GNOME configuration tools for end users). An other, easy possibility would be to hide advanced configuration options behind a button "advanced".
I know that this is not very specified yet, but maybe we can discuss about the problem and possible solutions.
What do you think?