Fair enough.
Points have been made.
On Jun 20, 2012 2:34 PM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
if we were to vote on every single change we would never get any
work
done. this is not important enough for a vote.
and, if you think everything should be up for a vote, what is the point in
having a design team, or fesco, or even the board? the simple answer is
having every fedora contributor to vote on every decision is not ralistic
and counter-productive.
sent from a mobile device so please excuse spelling mistakes.
On Jun 20, 2012 11:28 PM, "Dan Mashal" <dan.mashal(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Then maybe we should have a vote on it just like we did with release
> names? Maybe we should do more voting on more major changes? Maybe we
> should make it a full democracy instead of the engineering team decides is
> "better for the novice user" when they don't even communicate with the
> novice user.
>
> Dan
> On Jun 20, 2012 1:12 PM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad(a)fedoraproject.org>
wrote:
>
>> I do not like this approach, way too much clutter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal(a)gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> However, keep one thing in mind. It already automagically selects the
>>> lates Fedora kernel without user intervention, Martin. ;)
>>> On Jun 20, 2012 12:39 PM, "Martin Sourada"
<martin.sourada(a)gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:03:35 -0700
>>>> Kirk Bridger wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > Perhaps we can put some additional solution ideas forward.
>>>> >
>>>> > As a quasi-novice kernel user I always found it helpful to have the
>>>> > kernel versions visible. When I update Fedora and the nvidia blob
>>>> > causes X to fail, I like being able to choose older versions
because
>>>> > I can't do anything else. When a pre-upgrade ends up with a
>>>> > non-working version, I like to be able to run an older version to
>>>> > stay productive while I research the problem.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm not an expert user but I don't think I'm novice
either. I don't
>>>> > see why we need to *hide* the older versions behind another menu,
>>>> > just perhaps make it more clear that the old versions are still
>>>> > functional but are not the latest on the machine.
>>>> >
>>>> > Novice users have the "out" of saying "I don't
know what this all
>>>> > means but I know I want to launch the most current version".
And if
>>>> > they're dropped back here after a failure or two trying the
current
>>>> > version they can try the older versions.
>>>> >
>>>> > This all assumes that we're limited to the current
console-style
>>>> > menu. If we can use HTML/CSS or some other layout and styling we
can
>>>> > make this info much more parse-able with styling and different font
>>>> > sizes/layout. If we can do more than just console can someone send
a
>>>> > screenshot of what we can do, and maybe we can mock something up?
>>>> >
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> > Welcome to Fedora 17 (BeefyMiracle)
>>>> >
>>>> > *Current Versions*
>>>> > Fedora 17 (kernel-3.6.0-1.fc17)
>>>> > *
>>>> > Superceded Versions*
>>>> > Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-3.fc17)
>>>> > Fedora 17 (kernel-3.5.20-2.fc17)
>>>> > Fedora 16 (kernel-3.2.10-4.fc16)
>>>> >
>>>> > *Other Operating Systems*
>>>> > Microsoft Windows 7
>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> >
>>>> IMHO not a bad idea. I have a few notes though:
>>>> * Fedora 16 and Fedora 17 should be considered separate operating
>>>> systems (*if* they use different root).
>>>> * Boot loader should behave look like boot-loader not like an already
>>>> running operating system (the "Welcome to Fedora 17" text is
>>>> misleading)
>>>> * Why have Fedora stylistically higher priority than other operating
>>>> systems?
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, there are multiple different types of users, who use fedora,
>>>> let's divide them into few different groups.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Dual booters -- Fedora and Windows (or Mac)
>>>> ==============================================
>>>> These people probably just want to boot the latest version unless
>>>> something is broken. They might or might not know what the kernel
>>>> versions mean. It might be better to "hide" older kernels in
submenu
>>>> (or if grub2 allows some better css-like way, why not?)
>>>>
>>>> 2. *nix enthusiasts/developers -- multi-booters
>>>> ==============================================
>>>> These people will probably have multiple operating systems installed,
>>>> maybe even various versions of fedora. Let's say they have (for
>>>> example)
>>>> Fedora Rawhide, Fedora 17, Debian 6.0, FreeBSD 9 and Arch Linux. They
>>>> know very well what kernel is, but if all installed kernels are listed
>>>> there, the list gets rather large and it gets hard to quickly find the
>>>> latest kernel. Especially for the two Fedoras that you can tell apart
>>>> only by the fc18 vs. fc17 in kernel release number... While it would
>>>> make selecting *older* kernel versions slower, I think it would be
>>>> better to *hide* the older kernels in submenu, thus making the main
>>>> menu easier to navigate. IMHO the gain of quicker selection of most
>>>> recent kernel for each release would outweigh the less frequent slow
>>>> down introduced by submenus.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Massive virtualization
>>>> =========================
>>>> These people have only one host operating system, the rest is in
>>>> virtual machines. IMHO they are the only group that would *not* benefit
>>>> from switch to sub-menus.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, the gains to the first two groups outweigh the loss of the third
>>>> group, but well, others might disagree. That's why we discuss
things,
>>>> right?
>>>>
>>>> So how would the bootloader screen would look like?
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Welcome to GRUB 2
>>>> Select an OS to boot:
>>>>
>>>> * Fedora Rawhide (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc18)
>>>> * Fedora 17 (with linux-3.6.0-23.fc17)
>>>> * Debian 6.0 (with linux-2.6.28.3-23)
>>>> * Microsoft Windows 7
>>>> --------
>>>> * Fedora Rawhide (Rescue)
>>>> - older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
>>>> rescue mode(s)
>>>> * Fedora 17 (Rescue)
>>>> - older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
>>>> rescue mode(s)
>>>> * Debian 6.0 (Rescue)
>>>> - older kernels listed in this submenu, and possibly some special
>>>> rescue mode(s)
>>>> * Microsoft Windows 7
>>>> - if we can only chainload win 7, this would not make sense, however
>>>> if we could run rescue modes for win from grub, this where it would
>>>> be.
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> THanks,
>>>> Martin
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Elad Alfassa.
>>
>>
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