On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 May 2009 12:37:56 +1000 David bouncingcats@gmail.com wrote:
Also, having participated in several classrooms, several times I have seen presenters have to rush the latter part of their presentation and question sessions cut short. I strongly suggest for this mode of delivery that 90 minutes would should be allowed, with presenters aiming for a 45 minute presentation and a 30 minute interactive question session.
Yeah, I agree. I think it's very easy to misjudge times for an irc class if you are used to giving live or other presentations/classes. All that typing can take a while! :)
I'd just like to emphasise that my point is not about the amount of content in the class. I think all the presenters have done great with this.
My point is: Given the limitations of IRC as a communications medium, 60 minutes is not enough time for a interesting class plus interesting questions, so I suggest scheduling class start times to begin at not less than 90 minute intervals.
What I am really getting at is that optimising the class duration should be more important than scheduling the class into 1 hour slots.
The fact that we generally conceptualise each day in 24 equal intervals does not make 1 hour the optimum time for an activity.
It is a tiny inconvenience to begin a classes on the half hour (eg at xx30 hours), but would allow better classes in my opinion.
I think the classes are great. So once we have got everyone together in the channel and have a great session going, lets not cut it short without a good reason. Thats how I'm looking at it.
I dont want to see pressure on presenters to fill the time. If the class reaches an early finish due to completeing the content or exhausting the questions, no problem. But lets not prevent great classes by making the timeslot too short.
2009/5/16 David bouncingcats@gmail.com:
On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 May 2009 12:37:56 +1000 David bouncingcats@gmail.com wrote:
Also, having participated in several classrooms, several times I have seen presenters have to rush the latter part of their presentation and question sessions cut short. I strongly suggest for this mode of delivery that 90 minutes would should be allowed, with presenters aiming for a 45 minute presentation and a 30 minute interactive question session.
Yeah, I agree. I think it's very easy to misjudge times for an irc class if you are used to giving live or other presentations/classes. All that typing can take a while! :)
I'd just like to emphasise that my point is not about the amount of content in the class. I think all the presenters have done great with this.
My point is: Given the limitations of IRC as a communications medium, 60 minutes is not enough time for a interesting class plus interesting questions, so I suggest scheduling class start times to begin at not less than 90 minute intervals.
What I am really getting at is that optimising the class duration should be more important than scheduling the class into 1 hour slots.
The fact that we generally conceptualise each day in 24 equal intervals does not make 1 hour the optimum time for an activity.
It is a tiny inconvenience to begin a classes on the half hour (eg at xx30 hours), but would allow better classes in my opinion.
I think the classes are great. So once we have got everyone together in the channel and have a great session going, lets not cut it short without a good reason. Thats how I'm looking at it.
I dont want to see pressure on presenters to fill the time. If the class reaches an early finish due to completeing the content or exhausting the questions, no problem. But lets not prevent great classes by making the timeslot too short.
Proposition:
Offer the instructor an option for how long the class will be. 60 minutes, 90 minutes, or 120 minutes.
-Yaakov
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Yaakov Nemoy loupgaroublond@gmail.com wrote:
2009/5/16 David bouncingcats@gmail.com:
On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 May 2009 12:37:56 +1000 David bouncingcats@gmail.com wrote:
Also, having participated in several classrooms, several times I have seen presenters have to rush the latter part of their presentation and question sessions cut short. I strongly suggest for this mode of delivery that 90 minutes would should be allowed, with presenters aiming for a 45 minute presentation and a 30 minute interactive question session.
Proposition:
Offer the instructor an option for how long the class will be. 60 minutes, 90 minutes, or 120 minutes.
Thanks for responding, I think the flexible aspect of what you suggest is good, but it overlooks the fact that my suggestion does not fit in 60 minutes.
That is my original point: Based on the classes I have attended or read, I think 60 minutes is too short, forcing either the presentation or the questions to be truncated or rushed or inhibited. And without good reason, it seems to me.
If anyone wants to put a counter point of view that 60 minutes is enough, it would help to explain what the benefit of that would be, versus the benefit of allowing enough time for both a great presentation (eg 45 mins) and a great interactive question session (eg 30 mins).
When I started this thread it was based only on my impression from the small sample of classroom sessions I had attended.
So I thought it might be more objective to collect a data set from the logs at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Classroom.
The summary below shows that in the total sample of 26 nominal-60-minute classes on the wiki, there was nearly always time pressure between presentation and questions, and only 6 occasions when there was more than 5 minutes for final questions.
And again I'd like to congratulate everyone involved who I think did a great job. I'm just suggesting the task might be easier if they werent trying to fit a great presentation plus great interactive questions into a 60 minute slot on IRC.
I suggest classes be scheduled at minimum 90 minute intervals, based on approx 45 min presentation, 30 min questions, and 15 min break.
--------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Beginners_guide_to_getting_involved_(2008-11-0... @ 59 mins: stickster: Wow, my time is nearly up here stickster: I hope this has been a helpful introduciton @nirik Ineluctable: excellent. Feel free to find me after the sessions are over. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugzilla_Introduction_(2008-11-08_classroom) @ 54 mins: * nirik sees about 8 min left. Perhaps time for some Q&A? (>5 mins for final questions) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassador_Tips_and_Training_(2008-12-06_class...) @ 60 mins: spevack: I've covered everything that I had jotted down in my notes prior to this session. i'm happy to answer questions or general comments for the next 10 minutes or so --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_Features_(2009-02-08_classroom) @ 55 mins: jds2001: I think I'm almost out of time here. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Ambassador_Tips_(20090503_Classroom) @ 58 mins: spevack: ok, our hour is almost up. We can continue to chat for a bit, but I wanted to thank you all for coming to today's class, which is "officially" over, but the "unofficial" conversation can still go on :) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Trademarks_(20090307_classroom) @ 58 mins: * stickster asks herlo and nirik for possibly 3-5 extra minutes just in case * nirik notes just a few minutes left, but we can go over a bit no problem. :) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_i18n_(2009-02-08_classroom) @ 61 mins: juhp: ok I am into overtime now... juhp: but if you have any questions feel free to ask @ 88 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Firewall_Basics_(2008-11-09_classroom) @ 57 mins: * nirik sees we are out of time. Happy to answer more questions in #fedora or the like... --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging_fonts_in_Fedora_(2008-12-07_classroo...) @ 60 mins: nirik: nim-nim: since we are almost out of time... where can people find more info and get involved? the fedora-fonts list? nim-nim: nirik: I still have 15min, no? nirik: nim-nim: yeah, although we had time as a break between sessions... so folks could go get a cup of coffee, etc... ;) nim-nim: nirik: it's a no-coffee session :p nirik: No worries. :) @ 74 mins: nim-nim: do anyone has a remaining questin? nim-nim: you have 15min to sneak in more font questions :p @ 84 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gimp_Tricks_(2008-12-07_classroom) @ 61 mins: mizmo: sorry i ran over a bit mizmo: does anyone have any questions? @ 75 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Bug_Triage_(2008-12-06_classro...) @ 41 mins: jds2001: any questions? @ 51 mins: jds2001: I've only got about 10 minutes left here, any other questions or should I wrap it up? @nirik: how can one find bugs to tirage? 14:22 @nirik: and what areas are in most need? 14:22 jds2001: oof, completely missed that. @ 58 mins: finish. (>5 mins for final questions) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Mock_(20090308_Classroom) @ 51 mins: @nirik: ok, I think thats about all I was hoping to cover... (>5 mins for final questions) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduction_to_bash_shell_scripting_(20090307...) @ 60 mins: * nirik notes we are at 19:15 UTC now. ;) Feel free to go over, but do provide some break time before the next class. ;) StabbyMc_: nirik, thanks, I should be able to wrap up in another 5-10 mins :-) @ 72 mins: StabbyMc_: You're all welcome, sorry we ran out of time :-) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Introduction_to_libvirt_(20090503_Classroom) @ 60 mins: @nirik: ok, anyone have any further questions? or shall we wrap things up? --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KDE4_for_KDE3_Users_(2008-12-06_classroom) @ 54 mins: rdieter: anyway, we're running short on time, any last thoughts, comments, questions, before we end ? (>5 mins for final questions) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_Logical_Volumes_(2008-12-06_Classroom) @ 52 mins: herlo: any questoins? @ 62 mins: herlo: any other questions? herlo: k, guess not. Thanks all (>5 mins for final questions) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_Taxonomy_and_Techniques_(2008-11-08_cl...) @ 66 mins: ivazquez: Not quite done yet, but I understand if you have other things to do. @ 71 mins: ivazquez: Does anyone have any questions?] @ 76 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Perl_Basics_(20090307_classroom) @ 70 mins: fozzmoo: I'll end there... @ 75 mins: fozzmoo: Thanks all for attending. Good questions. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Configuration_Mgmt_using_Puppet_(2008-11-09_cl...) @ 64 mins: nirik: shall we wrap up and let kanarip get some sleep? --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_Fedora_Remix_(2008-11-09_classroom) @ 59 mins: * nirik notes we have no class in this next timeslot, so if kanarip wants to keep answering questions he can feel free to do so. :) @ 62 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SELinux_Basics_(2008-11-08_classroom) @ 56 mins: herlo: so I'm out of material and it looks like out of time herlo: any questions about this process? --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/The_4_key_causes_of_SELinux_errors_(20090503_C...) @ 80 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Training_and_Tips_for_Fedora_Ambassadors_(2009...) @ 59 mins: spevack: our time is up in 40 seconds spevack: but we'll move to #fedora-ambassadors to continue --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Understanding_RPM_(2009-02-08_classroom) @ 61 mins: herlo: any other questions? @ 64 mins: finish. --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Using_the_Windows_cross-compiler_(20090308_cla...) @ 41 mins: @rwmjones: Any questions? @ 62 mins: finish. (>5 mins for final questions) --------------------------------------- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Yum_Tips_and_Tricks_(2009-02-08_classroom) @ 57 mins: nirik: any further questions before we wrap up? ---------------------------------------
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:03:46 +1000 David bouncingcats@gmail.com wrote:
When I started this thread it was based only on my impression from the small sample of classroom sessions I had attended.
So I thought it might be more objective to collect a data set from the logs at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Classroom.
The summary below shows that in the total sample of 26 nominal-60-minute classes on the wiki, there was nearly always time pressure between presentation and questions, and only 6 occasions when there was more than 5 minutes for final questions.
And again I'd like to congratulate everyone involved who I think did a great job. I'm just suggesting the task might be easier if they werent trying to fit a great presentation plus great interactive questions into a 60 minute slot on IRC.
I suggest classes be scheduled at minimum 90 minute intervals, based on approx 45 min presentation, 30 min questions, and 15 min break.
Yeah, one thing to keep in mind however is that many sessions (at least the ones I have done), the teachers allow/encourage questions during the session itself. This means that there is probibly going to be less questions at the end, simply because people already asked them when they thought of them. ;)
I don't object to 90min as a default... I agree that most classess have had much more material to discuss. Also, if a class finishes early, there are no more questions, then the break between that class and the next could just be larger, no harm done. ;)
kevin
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:03:46 +1000 David bouncingcats@gmail.com wrote:
When I started this thread it was based only on my impression from the small sample of classroom sessions I had attended.
So I thought it might be more objective to collect a data set from the logs at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Classroom.
The summary below shows that in the total sample of 26 nominal-60-minute classes on the wiki, there was nearly always time pressure between presentation and questions, and only 6 occasions when there was more than 5 minutes for final questions.
And again I'd like to congratulate everyone involved who I think did a great job. I'm just suggesting the task might be easier if they werent trying to fit a great presentation plus great interactive questions into a 60 minute slot on IRC.
I suggest classes be scheduled at minimum 90 minute intervals, based on approx 45 min presentation, 30 min questions, and 15 min break.
Yeah, one thing to keep in mind however is that many sessions (at least the ones I have done), the teachers allow/encourage questions during the session itself. This means that there is probibly going to be less questions at the end, simply because people already asked them when they thought of them. ;)
Sure, and thats great, so I was mindful of that when I tried to assess the logs, but its quite a difficult thing to measure, so after giving that some thought I decided it was too hard to do justice to that aspect, but I still wanted to try to come up with some useful data, so I restricted my focus to the end of the class to try to assess if it was truncated or not.
I don't object to 90min as a default... I agree that most classess have had much more material to discuss. Also, if a class finishes early, there are no more questions, then the break between that class and the next could just be larger, no harm done. ;)
Thats how it looks to me too.
Thanks for the opportunity to give and clarify some input. I don't mind if my suggestions are adopted or not, as long as I've had the opportunity to explain them fully, which I have.
Skim-reading through all the logs emphasised even more to me what a great job you and all the helpers and presenters have done on this project.
classroom@lists.fedoraproject.org