The benefit of having an actual legal entity -- in this case it is called "Fedora EMEA" -- is to make it easier for events related to Fedora to happen in Europe.

Think about it this way:

The same way that FAMSCo helps to organize (and fund) everything that is happening in Fedora Ambassadors all over the world, the Fedora EMEA group can help to organize (and fund) events that are happening in Fedora.

My ultimate goal, in the work that I do with FAMSCo and also in the work that I will be doing in Europe, is this:

*** Give the budget that Red Hat sets aside for Fedora directly to the hands of our community leaders, and allow them to make the most of it. ***

The reason why the Fedora EMEA "non-profit organization" is important is because it is a "legal entity" that makes it possible for Red Hat to transfer a large chunk of budget (say, several thousand dollars) directly to that organization, and know that the money is being accounted for properly, and being spent on promoting Fedora and community.

I don't want people to get caught up in this whole idea of "membership". The goal should not be to raise money from our own Ambassadors, who are already giving us so much. The goal of Fedora EMEA non-profit is to be able to take money from Red Hat in an easier way, and also to be able to take sponsorship money from any other group or company that might want to give it to *Fedora*, but that cannot give it to *Red Hat*.

The Fedora community in EMEA -- ambassadors, developers, translators, Red Hat employees, Fedora users -- is my main focus, starting next week.

The Fedora EMEA non-profit is simply a *tool that we can use* to help ourselves be better organized.

I know that many people will be at LinuxTag in Berlin in a few weeks. I would like to use some of the time that we have when we are all together in a room to talk more about this.

Please, if you have any more questions, let me know and let's talk about it.

--Max

Hi,

Sandro "red" Mathys schrieb:

Thank you Christoph, I already thought I'm the only guy who's thinking something's going terribly wrong there.

+1 on everything, especially the €128.

Even though I can afford that money quite easily, I really have no idea how that helps me to save money for travels to events a.s.o.

The membership fee is astronomicaly high, thats correct. For many people or countrys is out of the question. And I think it`s the highest membership fee I ever saw.

The interessting question is, what happens with this money ?

If it`s well spend, it`s ok from my side. If it`s not well spend, it`s better to donate that money to the Free Software Foundation, as they are doing far more important job than promoting a single distribution. Or if you want it more direct, you could also donate the money to KDE for example.

Donating the money to FSF or one of the projects would benefit the whole free software world.

After all, Fedora is still some kind of outsourcing-project to reduce the cost of development for RHEL. Fedora would not survive without Redhat, unlike Debian or Gentoo.

cu romal

Hi all,

first of all I'd like to say thanks to Gerold who called me up early yesterday morning to dispel my concerns. We talked for more than a hour, in the end Gerold was late for work but he still did not manage to ally my doubts.

Whenever we did not agree it came out to * "This is a theoretical case and will never happen" * "Nonsense" ("Quatsch mit Soße" for the German readers) or * "Bullshit" On the other hand I wasn't able to expose my problems to Gerold, so I'm going to outline my concerns once more, maybe somebody else will be able to meet them.

Am Samstag, den 10.05.2008, 13:19 +0200 schrieb Jeroen van Meeuwen:

Robert M. Albrecht wrote:

...

Hi,

Sandro "red" Mathys schrieb:

...

Thank you Christoph, I already thought I'm the only guy who's thinking something's going terribly wrong there.

+1 on everything, especially the EUR 128.

Even though I can afford that money quite easily, I really have no idea how that helps me to save money for travels to events a.s.o.

The membership fee is astronomicaly high, thats correct. For many people or countrys is out of the question. And I think it`s the highest membership fee I ever saw.

The interessting question is, what happens with this money ?

The most interesting question is, what do you think is an appropriate membership fee? Without that kind of feedback, I can only guess. Talk to me.

I'm also member of another FOSS support NPO (a German "e. V." just like Fedora EMEA) and we only have a symbolic fee of 1 EUR a month there. So far we haven't had any problems with that (except for we don't have much money, but we hardly have any expenses ether).

I can't believe we're having this "discussion", while all I hear is "the membership fee is too high". Maybe it is, maybe it's not.

I know there's reasons for the membership fee to be 128 EURO/year.

According to Gerold there were two reasons for the 128 EUR: a) "we are binary people" and 128 EUR equals 2*2*2*2*2*2*2. b) "we are having the same fee in my local LUG, too" Honestly I don't think that any of these sounds convincing. Maybe there are better reasons, but this is what Gerold told me on the phone.

Other people agreed with the proposal back in the day when we founded this NPO. We've had new members join since, and obviously they agree with the membership fee.

How many members from Africa or the middle east have joined and how many European members does the EMEA have in comparison?

They think it's important the NPO is doing the right thing for everyone out there more so then they think it's important for the NPO to do what they personally think is right.

Are you just bluntly disagreeing or is this based on every possible argument you could think of? Do you know what it means to have a low fee so that everyone can afford to join, although it isn't necessary, nor required, because decisions made by the NPO and it's members is already supposed to, if not required to, follow upstream, which is you, your peers, or anyone else that does or does not join?

Is the EMEA e. V. really bound to our decisions? I doubt that very much. And what if ambassadors and EMEA disagree on a particular issue? Gerold argued, that this won't happen because the main goal of the EMEA e. V. is the same as the ambassador's: To promote and support Fedora. But even if we have the same goal there might be different opinions on how to achieve this goal, so I think sooner or later there might be conflicts.

Imagine this: 5 ambassadors want Fedora to be on Foo-Expo. On the other hand 5 ambassadors who are also Fedora EMEA members disagree and think it is better to visit an event called Bar-Con. When it comes down to voting guess who will get financial support for their event...

How does one, given a low membership fee so that everyone can join, arraign a General Membership Meeting requiring a two-third majority of all votes cast (not just all attendees)? The consequences of lowering the membership fee are rather obvious, as too many members against low fees will not be able to gather on such General Members Meeting, thereby practically eliminating it's mandate.

I agree this might become a problem, but I think the bigger problem will be: The EMEA covers three continents, so the distance and the resulting costs are a much bigger hurdle for the attendees. Of course we could solve this problem by raising the member fee even more. Why not make it let's say a 1000 Euros, because people who can spend a thousand Euros for the NPO can also afford the travel costs the the members meeting. ;(

I think right now we are morally eliminating the mandate by making the EMEA an exclusive group of wealthy people. As Gerold said the cost reduced membership is available only for pupils, students and other people "who do not work full time". This means that the ambassadors from Middle East and Africa will have to pay the full membership fee too. This should be reconsidered, because one cannot compare rich countries in Europe with countries in the Middle East or Africa.

What if the membership fee is lowered to anything anyone can afford, and it's members, whom have the ultimate power, start disagreeing with the Fedora Project Board, or even FAmSCo? Do you think that's beneficial to anyone?

No, but I think * agreement or disagreement is not a question of money or the number of members but a question of opinion. * making participation depend on money isn't beneficial ether.

Don't you think it is really, really important to prevent that from ever happening? Could not be one way to prevent that from ever happening, be, to say:

"We are an NPO that does RAISE and SPEND money about which we decide not on our own, but follow our upstream, our peers as well as report back to them, because that's where every single contributor, our target, can vote, discuss, elect and be elected, and in order to do so, before you become a member of this NPO, you should realize that you are becoming a puppet of the community".

In your last mail you wrote that for legal requirements only members are allowed to vote, but now you say you don't decide on your own. I think only one of these two statements can be right.

Not the Fedora EMEA NPO, nor it's board, nor it's members, are pulling any strings. Don't forget that. You are. As it should be.

Now what about that membership fee? Talk to me.

I have no idea, we can only gather suggestions and decide on them later. If it needs to be binary for me 2*2*2*2*2=32 EUR would be fine.

I understand you are becoming a member, for which I'm very grateful. Note that this mail is not as much a reply to yours, as well as a reply to everyone expressing similar concerns.

I'm not sure if I will become a member of the NPO. I'd love to but for now I can ultimately say: I'm not going to spend 128 EUR a year for the EMEA. Why not? 1. I'm already spending a lot of time on Fedora: I'm maintaining nearly 50 packages, I'm doing artwork, going to Linux events and so on. 2. It's not that I cannot afford another 128 €, but for me FOSS is not about money in first place but about community and working together. 3. I am already spending a lot of money for charitable purposes. 4. If I'm going to spend another 128 EUR on charity there are lots of organizations who in my eyes need the money more urgent than Fedora.

We'll talk some more at LinuxTag, in real life, and when we do, I'm sure you'll appreciate the dedication the people involved have with regards to this NPO, their passion and vision, whether a member of the NPO or not. I'm excited!

Me too. Looking forward to see all of you in Berlin.

Christoph

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip

Am Samstag, den 10.05.2008, 17:22 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack:

On Sat, 10 May 2008, Christoph Wickert wrote:

...

4. If I'm going to spend another 128 EUR on charity there are lots
   of organizations who in my eyes need the money more urgent than
   Fedora.

I speak only for myself, here, but from my perspective the primary benefit of the .e.V. non-profit is that *companies* or *organizations* that want to contribute directly to Fedora, and who want to avoid the hassle of trying to give money to *Red Hat*, which is complicated when it is not for a specific product.

+1

*Our* community contributes its time, its energy, and its skills. Organizing events, maintaining packages, writing documentation, testing, etc. Those contributions are far more valuable than cash.

+100

Christoph

Am Samstag, den 10.05.2008, 23:29 +0200 schrieb Gerold Kassube:

*aaaaarhh*

Am Samstag, den 10.05.2008, 22:32 +0200 schrieb Christoph Wickert:

...

Hi all,

first of all I'd like to say thanks to Gerold who called me up early yesterday morning to dispel my concerns. We talked for more than a hour, in the end Gerold was late for work but he still did not manage to ally my doubts.

...

I know there's reasons for the membership fee to be 128 EURO/year.

According to Gerold there were two reasons for the 128 EUR: a) "we are binary people" and 128 EUR equals 2*2*2*2*2*2*2. b) "we are having the same fee in my local LUG, too" Honestly I don't think that any of these sounds convincing. Maybe there are better reasons, but this is what Gerold told me on the phone.

^^ THIS were my answers why the numbers are 1 2 8 and not 123 or 241 or 85 or something similar ... AND definitly NOT the reasons why the Foundation members voted for EUR 128 per year!

Sorry if I took you to literally. Also as I already told you in private I do not criticize you or your work. Please don't be offended just because you are the chair of EMEA. Thanks

Maybe someone else of the people who voted for 128 EUR could explain it to me then? I'm not talking about 128 or 129 Euros now but the general height of the fee.

There are several people on this list who say the fee is very high so I don't understand why this hasn't been considered by the founding members before.

Christoph

Hi Francesco,

thanks for your reply and for defining your position. I cannot agree to everything (especially to your mathematics ;)), so please let me give you a few answers:

Am Freitag, den 16.05.2008, 15:03 +0200 schrieb Francesco Ugolini:

2008/5/10 Christoph Wickert christoph.wickert@googlemail.com:

...

Sorry if I took you to literally. Also as I already told you in private I do not criticize you or your work. Please don't be offended just because you are the chair of EMEA. Thanks

Maybe someone else of the people who voted for 128 EUR could explain it to me then? I'm not talking about 128 or 129 Euros now but the general height of the fee.

All the founders vote for this fee, and they all together decided that it would the best solution, considering the number in a year ( 10.5 € circa per month and less than 4 cent per day),

??? 10,50 Euros a month divided by 30 days is 35 Cent per day. (This makes me wonder if I'm the only one who is reading your mail.)

so i know we are living with an economy near the stagnation, but i don't understand why this fee could create such criticism. Yes, i agree if you tell me that those are money, and it's a week or two of work in a PA office, but i think if you consider that amount in a larger view it's not so much.

It's not much for you and me or might not be much for most Europeans, but for people in Africa it's two months working full time (see below). When you say "it's a week of work" then I doubt you understood the problem.

...

There are several people on this list who say the fee is very high so I don't understand why this hasn't been considered by the founding members before.

Maybe because they weren't in Bruxelles?

Point taken. But I think it is wrong to imply indifference to all people who did not make it Bruxelles.

...

I agree the fee is a statement, but do you think that on the other hand not being able to pay the fee also is one? People who are not willing or able to pay the membership may still valuable and hard working contributors.

There are several categories that have cost reduction to allow people who can't afford such cost (i think one of this people with a certain income not to pay or pay a low fee, but see the "fee document" to be sure).

I'd love to but I have no idea what document your are talking about. I did a full text search on all my fedora mail but I can't find it, did search the Wiki and did not find it ether. Could you please show me this document?

In January we had the "EMEA: Preliminary Statutes" thread and there only a maximum was defined. The fad_2007_emea_ship_en presentation at http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FAD/ mentions two fellowship/membership levels: 25 and 50 Euros. So I hope you can understand why I was shocked when I first heard of 128 EUR last week.

According to Gerold the cost reduced membership is only available to pupils, students or to people who do not work full time. I already wrote this im my second mail in this thread and nobody has corrected me/Gerold since then, so I have to assume this is correct.

The Problem with this fee is that it does not take the ambassador's income or their countries purchasing power parity (PPP) into account.

GDP - per capita (PPP): [1] Germany: 34,400 France: $33,800 Italy: $31,000 Netherlands: $38,600 Switzerland: $39,800

and in contrast: Armenia: $5,700 Jordan: $4,700 Mauritius $11,900 Mozambique: $900 Nigeria: $2,200

We have Ambassadors from all these countries and all these people will have to pay the same amount of money. Do you really think you will be able to attract members from Africa or the Middle East this way?

...

Sorry if I did not point out my suggestion more clearly: Lower the member fee to enable more people to participate. Especially because the NPO is called EMEA but lacks ME and A at the moment.

A is not missing. In Africa there are some ambassadors who expressed in the past their agreement for such initiative, not to have a card with Fedora EMEA writte on it, but to be able to easily ask for resources and be part of a easy network that could linke them. In the last LinuxTag a Monzambique ambassador attended the event and seemes interested in this idea.

Africa or Middle East are missing as long as the EMEA e.V. has no paying member from there that is allowed to vote on all e.V. issues. Simple as that.

For ME there is some work in progress, but if you consider we had just an event in Dubay (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents/GITEX).

I think if we ask ambassadors and contributors they aren't in search of membership, but in search of help. Fedora EMEA is something that was created after two year of contribution, that underlines the importance to have a center in the EMEA where we can refer to improve our work.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm also in search of participation. And participation unfortunately is limited to membership. As Jeroen pointed out this is not our policy but a legal need that you cannot change. All you can change is the height of the fee.

...

It's a fact that we already have this situation. Think of Kushal for example: No doubt that he is a valuable contributor and if I did not offer him a free place to sleep he would not have been able to come to Berlin at all. Two days ago he told me that he wont be able to come anyway because he did not find a sponsor.

I agree with Joerg and Max posts: they express what i think too.

Let me add a tought:

There is a lot of work in front of us, we have to focus our time and passion (that you and everyone here has) in a costructive way. While we are discussiong about this issue, we are losing a possible Fedora user and/or contributors, and we are moving away the community.

Do you really think we are loosing people because we TALK? Fedora is lucky to have a large and vital community and it is completely normal for people to have different opinions. Talking about this is not a uncomfortable liability or a waste of time but a fundamental need.

If you say we are moving away from the community I have to reply that IMO we are moving away by making the Fedora NPO an exclusive club of Europeans or people who can afford it otherwise.

Please, just give the time to Fedora EMEA to spring its wings and demostrate its capacities, then you'll have all the time to criticize its positions,

Sorry to interrupt you here: I'm not criticizing the EMEA's positions but a single point in it's design.

but, now, let Gerold and the EMEA board to build Fedora EMEA: they were voted by people with a publig vote (see the M-L announce and the self-nomination wiki) and now they have the right and the duty to work!

Of course they have, please understand I don't challenge this at all.

Kind Regards, Christoph

[1] Numbers are taken from the World Fact Book. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

Am Samstag, den 17.05.2008, 16:48 +0200 schrieb Francesco Ugolini:

2008/5/17 Christoph Wickert christoph.wickert@googlemail.com:

Just a mistake made with calculator (I've read the decimal like the cent and I've approximated this one, sorry). The substance doesn't change.

IMO it makes a big difference. If it were only 4 Cent a day we surly would not discuss this here.

Anyway, can you show me the "fees" document you were talking about? I'd like to read it in preparation of the FAD.

[snipped]

I don't want to cut the discussion, I'm just asking to wait and see what the Board will do, because I'm sure they are working hard and they have the same goal of any other person here.

Once again: It's not about what the board will do but about the design. I'm convinced that everybody will do his best, nevertheless this is an issue that needs further discussion on the FAD.

C U there, Christoph

Collecting money from third parties is the primary reason in my point of view... getting money from the community is not the target of this operation!

So there is nothing to fear - there is no need to be a member.. this is mainly a way to get sponsors

Kind regards, Andi Rau

Am Montag, den 19.05.2008, 09:31 +0200 schrieb Max Spevack:

On Sat, 17 May 2008, Christoph Wickert wrote:

...

We have Ambassadors from all these countries and all these people will have to pay the same amount of money. Do you really think you will be able to attract members from Africa or the Middle East this way?

I know that I keep chiming in on the side of this thread, but once again I must say that from my perspective as a Red Hat employee whose full-time job is to build community throughout EMEA, I am not at all interested in collecting any sorts of fees from people who are members of the Fedora community.

When the idea of a Fedora EMEA e.V. was first proposed to me, the reason that I supported the idea was because it would be useful to have a legal entity, not Red Hat, that was organized and working to promote the mission of Fedora throughout EMEA. I think it is also an interesting experiment in community empowerment, and a good next step for the larger Fedora Project to try.

Fedora EMEA e.V., if you ask *my opinion*, should be trying to raise money from third parties, and not from the current Fedora community. A peson does not need to be a "member" of Fedora EMEA e.V. to be a member of the Fedora community in Europe, Africa, Middle East, or anywhere.

Again, I speak only for myself, and from the viewpoint of someone who is tasked with thinking about the overall health of the Fedora community in EMEA, and in also making sure that the financial situation of Fedora EMEA e.V., whatever that situation might be, is handled transparently for the community, the Fedora Board, and Red Hat to all make the most of it.

--Max

-- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list

On Sat, 10 May 2008, Gerold Kassube wrote:

One day Christoph, we meet again (let`s say in two weeks) ... and then we discuss all your issues and your concerns in a long night and then you DON`T change my words in my mouth and DON`T interpret issues you don't know about or ask somebody before ...

Let's all just calm down, and everyone should make their lists of questions, and we will sit together in a room at LinuxTag and explain everything face to face.

:)

--Max

Because you want to read it black on white ...

Is the EMEA e. V. really bound to our decisions? I doubt that very much. And what if ambassadors and EMEA disagree on a particular issue? Gertold argued, that this won't happen because the main goal of the EMEA e. V. is the same as the ambassador's: To promote and support Fedora. But even if we have the same goal there might be different opinions on how to achieve this goal, so I think sooner or later there might be conflicts.

^^ AS explained: Fedora EMEA e.V. is bound on the statutes they have! We are founded out from the Ambassadors project, MOST (not ALL) are Ambassadors, correct! "Fedora EMEA e.V." is by law bounded on the decissons and elections they did in member meetings BY the MEMBERS on things which BELONGS to the association nothing more, nothing else. Any comments?

And so again you don`t trust the foundation members as written below: - with their personal behavior, - their (partial) signed cla (at the Fedora Project)

and you also miscredit here in public with your written words on the Ambassadors Mailing List

Fabian Affolter, Swiss, Ambassador AND FAmSCo VICE CHAIR Francesco Crippa, Italian, Ambassador Chitlesh Goorah, Mauritian, Ambassador Stefan Hartsuiker, Netherlands Gerold Kassube, Germany, Ambassador Jens Kuehnel, Germany Jeroen van Meeuwen, Netherlands, Ambassador Robert Scheck, Germany, Ambassador Jörg Simon, Germany, Ambassador also Francesco Ugolini, Italian, Ambassador AND FAmSCo CHAIR

which are the foundation members of Fedora EMEA e.V.

Thanks for your great statements

Gerold

Sebastian Vahl wrote:

Please take this just as a question: So far this discussion was between europeans (plus Max). The founders of EMEA are all europeans (and Chitlesh who is AFAIK still living in Europe). So the height of the fee might be decided based on european living standards?

We did not look at what a person would be able to spend, at all. It has never been about the number of members, or getting everyone to join us. Your involvement already serves us plenty. And besides, as we could not, and did not want to, request or require people to join, the membership fee is a donation - not a purchase of the right to chime in, because you have that already.

The first proposition for a member fee was 10,24 EURO/month. Everyone agreed. I suggested it would be simpler to take 128 EURO/year, and everyone agreed. Vote passed.

Imagine the membership fee would be 10 EURO/year. To transfer that money, you would have to pay at least that same amount of money. That, I think, does not give anyone the impression the money is getting where it's supposed to get. Bad idea.

Kind regards,

Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip

Am Samstag, 10. Mai 2008 22:32:52 schrieb Christoph Wickert:

We talked for more than a hour, in the end Gerold was late for work but he still did not manage to ally my doubts. On the other hand I wasn't able to expose my problems to Gerold, so I'm going to outline my concerns once more, maybe somebody else will be able to meet them. I'm not sure if I will become a member of the NPO. I'd love to but for now I can ultimately say: I'm not going to spend 128 EUR a year for the EMEA. Why not? 1. I'm already spending a lot of time on Fedora: I'm maintaining nearly 50 packages, I'm doing artwork, going to Linux events and so on. 2. It's not that I cannot afford another 128 €, but for me FOSS is not about money in first place but about community and working together

Working together in a Community, that is absolut the point! A Ambassador who is not present make no harm to the Project and is no Problem - Members in the NPO can slow us down - even can make us inoperative - if they not contribute regularly. We need hard working Members and not people who participate only to be in the NPO, get Travel Costs and Hotel Rooms payed. The fee is a clear statement to work in the NPO to serve the Fedoraproject. And there can not be a conflict because FESCO, FAMSCO ... - are the rulers, the NPO serve the Fedoraproject for their needs - and must Report it quarterly. It is really easy to abuse the work of much active people, without constructive suggestion for a solution. We live meritocracy, be sure if there are People who do valuable contributions and can not pay the fee we will find a Solution, maybe Sponsors for them. If you ever had really worked with the Community of Ambassadors you would know that!

Happy Whitsun

Hi Christop and all other,

hopefully we don't bother you with that never ending discussion but it seems that there is a really, really big misunderstanding between some single persons and the Fedora EMEA e.V. which must be discussed here in public

...

And there can not be a conflict because FESCO, FAMSCO ... - are the rulers, the NPO serve the Fedoraproject for their needs - and must Report it quarterly.

Sorry for asking again, but my question still isn't answered: Is Fedora EMEA really bound to FESCO or FAMSCO from a judical point of view? Can someone please show me the corresponding words in the EMEA statutes? TIA.

^^ ONCE again! Fedora EMEA e.V. is NOT PART of the Ambassador project and because of that, FEDORA EMEA isn't bound to any decissions from FAmSCo or any other SCo of Fedora or on behalb of Red Hat ... and ALSO ONCE AGAIN: it is _not_ a mandatory membership for!

Fedora EMEA e.V. is bounded on the votes the member make depending on the Fedora EMEA e.V. targets and audiences.

Nobody needs to sign a membership with us, but we're really happy if YOU could do so.

...

We live meritocracy, be sure if there are People who do valuable contributions and can not pay the fee we will find a Solution, maybe Sponsors for them.

It's a fact that we already have this situation. Think of Kushal for example: No doubt that he is a valuable contributor and if I did not offer him a free place to sleep he would not have been able to come to Berlin at all. Two days ago he told me that he wont be able to come anyway because he did not find a sponsor.

^^ A sponsor for what Christoph? AS "responsible" for Linuxtag organisation I promise you, that every Ambassador who is willing to attend Linuxtag will have EXACT the same amount reserved for LinuxTag. And I decided to propose the accomodation and asked Max for it, to put these costs into the budget at least to be fair to everyone! Maybe you should pay his flight ticket from India to Europe with EUR 1000 :-) Let's show another way to be fair to everyone: RED HAT should pay every participant the EUR 1000 for travel plus Hotel (now we take a cheaper one with let's say EUR 50/day) so we have with 24 attendees right now a calculation of

24 x EUR 1000 Travel (because we're all valuable contributors) 24 x 5 nights x 50 Euro ----------------------- TOTAL == EUR 30.000,-

So going ahead and take the 10 EUR from membership you are willing to spend for Fedora EMEA e.V. we have 10 members (atm) x 10 Euro/year == 100 Euro Now please have a look again, how big is the sponsorship Fedora EMEA can do ...

It is really important that we discuss things on the round table maybe also in native language German ...

Just my (last) 5 Cents

Gerold

On Thu, 15 May 2008, Christoph Wickert wrote:

So my original question is legitimate: What happens if EMEA e. V. disagrees with FAmSCo or FeSCo? Indeed, it's a hypothetical question. I'm not saying that it necessarily will happen, but in a big community of people it is very likely to happen sooner or later and we need to be prepared for the worst case.

I speak only for myself:

Fedora EMEA e.V. can do whatever it wants. It is a *coincidence* that many of Fedora EMEA e.V.'s members are also Fedora contributors, volunteers, developers, and ambassadors.

Fedora EMEA e.V. is granted the right to use the "Fedora" name by the Fedora Board, and that right is granted as long as the Fedora Board believes that the work Fedora EMEA e.V. is doing supports the larger work that the Fedora Project is doing.

One of the most useful properties of Fedora EMEA e.V. is that it will allow the Fedora and Community budget that Red Hat allocates for EMEA (not just Europe, but for all of EMEA) to be more easily managed and spent.

Right now, paying for an event like LinuxTag is a difficult task, that has taken up a lot of my time and energy behind the scenes. The actual organizational work has been done by the LinuxTag organizational team, but in the end it is my responsibility to make sure the bills get paid. Having a legal entity (Fedora EMEA e.V.) in the future will make this easier.

Again, I urge everyone to think of Fedora EMEA e.V. as a useful tool and legal entity that can *support* the Fedora Project, and *not* as a replacement for anything that the Fedora Ambassadors group is doing.

==========

On the subject of LinuxTag directly, I will say this:

We are spending close to $20k USD on LinuxTag this year, which is more than double what we spent on the event last year.

There will be over 20 Fedora Ambasadors from all over Europe at the event, which makes it the largest non-FUDCon event that we have ever had, anywhere in the world. It is also a 4 day event in a large, expensive city. The *vast majority* of the costs of LinuxTag go to helping to make sure that all the Fedora Ambassadors and contributors who attend the event do not have to suffer financial hardship in order to do so. Those Ambassadors are already giving 4 days of their time, and almost all of them are going into their own pockets for travel costs and for Fedora polo shirts. The Fedora Project is helping to make sure that the hotel bills are paid.

But our money is not infinite, and while it pains me to not be able to fully fund everyone's trip to LinuxTag, at some point we had to draw the line. There is only *one person* coming to LinuxTag from outside of Europe, and that is Paul Frields.

The Fedora Project spends the *vast majority* of its funds directly on community members, helping to fund travel, lodging, etc. This will continue to be the case, but our money is not unlimited. :)

Significant community investment is being made this year in Europe, India, South America, and Asia. These are areas that have, in the past, only received small amounts of funding. All Fedora contributors in those parts of the world will have opportunities to organize, attend, and participate in events this year that never existed before.

=======

I hope this email serves to give everyone some of my own views into the Fedora EMEA e.V. and also into how worldwide budget decisions are weighed and managed.

I am happy to talk in depth about any more of this, either on the list, or in person at LinuxTag.

--Max

Am Donnerstag, den 15.05.2008, 23:15 +0200 schrieb JoergSimon:

Hi Christoph,

You do not need answer this. I think most people are sick of our ping pong game :P

I'd be happy if it were ping pong, because I hardly get a reply to simple yes/no questions. :(

Am Donnerstag, 15. Mai 2008 15:08:03 schrieb Christoph Wickert:

...

I agree the fee is a statement, but do you think that on the other hand not being able to pay the fee also is one? People who are not willing or able to pay the membership may still valuable and hard working contributors.

You read my comment about help/sponsoring this people?

Of course I did, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to ask you something about this comment, wouldn't I?

...

Sorry for asking again, but my question still isn't answered: Is Fedora EMEA really bound to FESCO or FAMSCO from a judical point of view? Can someone please show me the corresponding words in the EMEA statutes? TIA.

The Fedora Board has given Fedora EMEA e.V. the right to use the Brand "Fedora" (Name, Artwork, Logo ...) and requested quarterly Report to have the overview that we act in there terms. If we will not do our Job, they can take us this right - without this Fedora EMEA e.V. is nothing.

But this doesn't mean that EMEA e.V. and Fedora (RH, FeSCo, FAmSCo or whoever) will always agree. And I does not say anything on what to do when they disagree.

Threatening people is not a solution and will not encourage them to anything, especially if it is an empty thread. Do you really think RH would leave the NPO and look for other people to found a new one? This would be the 'last exit', but we need to find ways to avoid this a few steps earlier - and this is exactly what I'm talking about.

...

It's a fact that we already have this situation. Think of Kushal for example: No doubt that he is a valuable contributor and if I did not offer him a free place to sleep he would not have been able to come to Berlin at all. Two days ago he told me that he wont be able to come anyway because he did not find a sponsor.

I think is good to have Friends from all over the world in Berlin. Last Year we had Kushal in Berlin and i am sure it is not the last time we had fun together. I am also sure most of us in Germany would take the chance to get a sponsored flight to india or US to speak about our work in europe. This Year Contributors like Yakoov from US will join us - next year another one - for me this is a good choice.

...

Please tell me, did you know what I just wrote about Kushal?

Yes! And be sure many more about him - i can call him a good fellow!

...

If the answer is "yes", then your "we will find a solution" is wrong.

To sponsor flights for Speakers in the end is a decission who is taken by FedoraCommunity Leader EMEA MaxSpevack. How we handle the Member Fee not. Only a Example - solution for membership could also be, that the NPO Members decide to create a Activity-CreditSystem - less MemberFee for doing something like talks, events ...

Thanks, this is the first constructive statement regarding the member fee I heard in this discussion and I think we should follow our idea.

...

And if the answer is "no", you are not in the position to tell me that

The answer is yes - so i am now?

Yes you are, but then I wonder how you can write "we will find a solution" when you know that we already failed in case of "a good fellow" of yours.

...

I don't know what's happening in the Ambassador's community.

like your kind question in http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007-December/msg0001... You must like our Events a lot!

There was simple reason for that: Although EMEA was the primary topic of FAD at Rheinfelden I could not find the meeting minutes with a search for "EMEA" or "Rheinfelden". It was my mistake, I did not look close enough and I publicly excused for this like half an hour later. Nevertheless I still think the meeting minutes belong into the wiki but not into a PDF inside a tarball at fedorapeople.org.

...

You just said that I never really worked with the Ambassadors Community. Thanks a lot! Maybe I'm not the loudest person who always shouts out "Me first", but I'm doing a lot of work for the project that you won't see on this mailing list.

Sorry to say, you never showed an interest in the preparation for the NPO in Front of Fosdem or other events, or interest to work in a team with the majority of European Ambassadors.

Now you blame me for not showing interest in the NPO, but in the previous paragraph you blamed me for asking for information about the NPO. Huh? So if I'm not interested, why would I ask for information?

Again you confuse "interest" with "financial possibilities". I would have loved to attend FAD at Rheinfelden, but when I do I need to be sure it's worth the time and the costs for me. So I wrote a long mail to the ambassador who organized the FAD and asked if he could give me more detailed information, so I could prepare better for the meeting. I also offered more help, but never got a reply, so I did not go to Rheinfelden.

I believe you, when you say - you do a lot for the Fedora Project as a Maintainer or so ...!

You are right: I have to admit I did not work WITH the other ambassadors a lot, but that doesn't mean I didn't work FOR them. In 2007, my fist year as an ambassador I did: * Linuxtag 2007 of course * I-Party (annual install party here at Münster) * 2 full days on "linux.forum/nrw". * One radio interview on Fedora * One meeting with a couple of journalists whom I showed "sugar" Correct my if I'm wrong but I think all of these events are ambassadors action.

To work as a Ambassador is to communicate and encourage. Tue Gutes und rede darueber ;-) Back to work now!

I'm not good in fishing for compliments and I don't need to write I did this or that just to win recognition.

The saying "Do something good and talk about it" also means that something needs to be done before you can talk. Unfortunately I'm under the impression that some people are proceeding the other way round, so I try to talk as little as possible. I hope you won't reproach me with that.

Gruss Joerg

Regards, Christoph

Hi,

...

The membership fee is astronomicaly high, thats correct. For many people or countrys is out of the question. And I think it`s the highest membership fee I ever saw.

The interessting question is, what happens with this money ? The most interesting question is, what do you think is an appropriate membership fee?

Nope. My question points into the future. If the money is will spend, the fee is ok. If the money is not well spend, it`s crap. Every for himself has to judge this after one or two years.

For KDE Cebit Booth or Chaos Communication Congress in Berlin we don`t go in a hotel, we rent a flat for a week (400 Euros per week for all 10 people). Moving more people to a booth than are needed to equip the booth may be great fun, but it`s not well spend.

Are you just bluntly disagreeing or is this based on every possible argument you could think of?

I`m not disagreeing at all, I just raised a question and did not answer it.

How does one, given a low membership fee so that everyone can join, arraign a General Membership Meeting requiring a two-third majority of all votes cast (not just all attendees)?

In Chaos Computer Club we have a statement, that membership meetings can take place via telecommunication. That`s perfectly legal. Moving people physically is not a legal requirement.

cu romal

Am Sonntag, den 11.05.2008, 13:19 +0200 schrieb Jeroen van Meeuwen:

[...]

You are questioning the spending of (say..) ~0.1% percentage of a budget here -the part which comes from membership fees.

If the membership fee is only ~0.1% of the NPOs budget we could easily halve it. -0.05% budget compared to -50% fee for potential members, think about it.

Thanks, Christoph

2008/5/8 Sandro red Mathys red@fedoraproject.org:

Thank you Christoph, I already thought I'm the only guy who's thinking something's going terribly wrong there.

+1 on everything, especially the €128.

Even though I can afford that money quite easily, I really have no idea how that helps me to save money for travels to events a.s.o.

I thought private persons are welcome as basic members at a small fee (10-20€...maybe less, if I'm thinking about certain countries) and it's the companys that have to pay more for the member- oder even sponsorship.

By the way, I've been to Cameroun (West Africa) lately and you can't imagine what it'd mean there to spend €128. A beer (0.6l) costs about €0.6 and most people can't even afford to drink a single beer every day (soft drinks are not way cheaper). Can you imagine what it'd meant to spend €128 for them? And yes, they might be future ambassadors. I've visited some computer schools there and they're doing a good job. They're using Windows and not Linux yet, but maybe that's going to change some day - as soon as it's no longer accepted that they're using illegal licenses for example.

Well, my $.02

-- red

Christoph Wickert wrote:

...

Am Dienstag, den 06.05.2008, 22:56 +0200 schrieb Gerold Kassube:

...

Hi all together for the second,

because I forgot and some are asking for; there is only a german bank account possible (if we have elected a new Treasurer) and the membership fee is EUR 128,-/year for Full membership. This amount can be payed at Linuxtag in person (because of high transfer costs from foreign countrys) ...

AFAIR the Fedora EMEA NPO was founded to make it easier for us TO RAISE money for Fedora and not TO SPEND it. Or did I get something completely wrong here?

IMHO 128 € is way to much especially for those of us who are not from the wealthy countries of Europe. I think once again the European Ambassadors/Founding members of EMEA did not take the situation of all ambassadors into account. Remember, the letters "ME" in EMEA mean "Middle East" and "A" is for Africa. Has anybody really thought about the people there?

Could someone also please point out what the difference between the different membership grades is (full membership, family membership and so on)? According to the declaration of accession to Fedora EMEA the cost-reduced membership requires "a confirmation accepted in the Federal Republic of Germany." What does that mean?

Next question: What do I get for my membership? If I read Jörg Simons mail of March 24th 2008 correctly, members are getting a "one-off and exclusive" welcome present, whatever this means. Must be a hell of a present though... ;)

Also EMEA members are allowed to vote what to do the raised money. Of course understand this but I'm afraid we are going to divide the ambassadors program into first and second class ambassadors: Those who (can afford to) pay and therefore have more rights and those who don't.

Sorry, but this scares me off Christoph

Hi,

Fedora EMEA is a resources bridge and a tool that allow people around EMEA to work together without any limitation. I think to understand the reason of this fee we have to go right back, starting with the first FAD: there we understood that we need a unified EMEA infrastructure that could provide reasonable tools to spread the fedora voice, it couldn't be possible to work and to join big/medium/small events without a local management that could provide fastly monetary and physically resources without waiting the long and impossible times that we had before.

Fedora EMEA is a no-profit organization, it doesn't produce real profits, it could live with the founds that came from sponsors (there aren't a lot of those ones) and members.

Tell me if 10€ could be a reasonable fee: the maximum money we could rise with 100 members would be 1000: i can assure this money couldn't cover the expense of a medium event with 3 ambassadors (with the connected costs), 100 CDs and a bunch of tshirts.

Fedora EMEA membership is not a requrement to ask for resources and help, Fedora EMEA want to be a hand for fedora contrbutors and its membership is another way to contribute to help EMEA people spread fedora.

I think many people understand this and, personally, i could see it at FOSDEM and probably you will see it in the next LinuxTAG. If you want to contribute to this Organization you could do this, if you won't, don't worry, nothing will happen. As Gerold says Fedora EMEA is not part of ambassador project: if you will need resources you could ask, without any problems, one of the aim of fedora EMEA is this.

I haven't the link but i encourage everyone to read the "Fedora EMEA statute", you will find all the reason behind Fedora EMEA and a reason for such fee.

Regards

Francesco Ugolini