Am 01.08.2017 um 16:06 schrieb Brian Exelbierd:
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017, at 11:01 AM, buergermeister(a)karl-tux-stadt.de
> Sorry for the late answer but I was a bit busy last week.
> Am 25.07.2017 um 05:17 schrieb Brian Exelbierd:
>> Sirko (and everyone),
>> I've been reading your multi-part series on how you're doing the F26
>> release party in Phnom Penh.
>> I think this is a fantastic idea. I like that you are working directly
>> with lots of future members of the IT working groups in Cambodia and
>> likely future contributors. I really appreciate how using Fedora as a
>> base has let you talk about all kinds of technology and firmly introduce
>> it. Students are a hard audience, and it seems like you've found a
>> great low-resource high energy way to engage them. This is awesome.
>> Keep your posts coming.
>> I think these kind of release parties create an opportunity for existing
>> contributors and ambassadors to really bond with potential community
>> members. Many of our activities don't seem to have obvious followup. I
>> would be surprised if there isn't clear followup by Sirko here as he
>> will obviously have invested a lot of time and made friends (by showing
>> off freedom, features and first). What other ideas could we do like
>> this in your region?
> yes there was a lot of time investment, the organizing of it started
> last year in May/June as I was first time at PNC for discussing their
> curriculum. The curriculum was changed since then, e.g. is now CENTOS
> used for teaching Linux basics instead of SLES. We had several
> meetups, what I in my Fedora role could do to support PNC in their
> process to get the students ready for their later role.
> There will be another more Fedora oriented workshop, where we talk
> more about Fedora itself. The students know already the relationship
> Fedora has to CENTOS and looking forward to it. But so far the
> "Release Party" part is not finished yet. I still have to write a
> post about the Saturday and there are follow ups, every student did
> get a questionaire where I have received right now 28/50 after we
> received all and evaluated them, I will have another meeting with
> John Munger as head of PNC and Benoit Pitet to make an judgement, if
> we will do this in future again and where we been good with and where
> we can do better. So far we have a good feeling, as we made a short
> round after the party itself. There is another positive outcome, PN
> has not just a branch in Cambodia they have also one in Da Nang/Viet
> Nam and Cebu/Philippines so we might do it there in the future to,
> but lets see.
> So it was highly time consuming what I did (and still havent finished
> yet) but here are all things more time consuming as in Europe or
> If you want to help the region, then tell some first of all to
> realize the geographical size of it. They shall take an old atlas and
> cut out the Philippines and put it over Europe and the same they can
> do with Indonesia and put it over US. Maybe then they realize a bit
> of the dimensions and time zone problem we have here and stop to
> think its totally easy here to organize ONLINE IRC MEETINGS. Not
> speaking that even a rich country like Singapore has sometimes
> electricity problems ;)
While I intended my question to be a general one to prompt all
ambassadors to think, I appreciate your answer as it raises awareness
of some of the logistical challenges in APAC.
you opened "Sirko (and everyone)"
I think that working with FAmSCo we can find that there are a lot of
ideas that could be put into place. In particular, I know that
@robyduck is working on some ideas that could help here too.
Let's get creative on how we can make this work. This means what can
we change to get a functioning system without destroying our ability
to operate. As someone "on the ground" your ideas are critical here.
Are they? Sorry I have not seen good output from FAmSCo during the last
period, where shall it come from currently there sitting people in this
body, they dont know why we had this rules and where they come from. So
they assume to know everything and do things wildly just to do something
and thats then called success. Thats a joke nothing else.
The current FAmSCo did choose to MAKE someone of them to an Ambassador
so that he can serve in that body, instead of doing it the right way,
taking the next elected one and why because one of them would have a
problem with the next elected one. And even more they re-wrote the rules
so that FAmSCo can do it always this way.
THIS IS HIGHLY UNDEMOCRATIC
The only thing I have seen is someone using his FAmSCo power to decide
tickets which are his own or from close friends.....
There are solutions for it and they have to be discussed amongst the
Ambassadors of the region and not be decided by FAmSCo.
> Time is the biggest issue here, everything costs a lot of time and
> you have also lesser time. Brian I told you back at FUDCon, Asia
> would need an Impact by itself. The people have lesser time here to
> organize things but they are willing to contribute and participate.\
I do not believe that time is a unique problem for APAC. I'd argue
every region has its own version of this problem. However, I don't
understand why longer planning cycles and the like are insufficient
here. Can you expand on this?
well, I dont know what you talking here of. The only thing I mentioned
was the time zones in the text above and it seems you have not done what
I told you to do. You still say that NA has the same trouble like APAC
just in another way, so I see you have not putted Indonesia over the US
map. Never said its unique, just much larger as for others. Just gave
one example why these IRC meetings dont work, there are some other
> I remember a discussion with Jeroen and Tuan about motivation of
> Asians, Tuan and I did not agree that they have to be motivated, they
> do everything with a lot of passion but organizing things they have a
> problem with, they lack on expierience for doing it and the time to
> do it. So the job for this Impact is to organize with the help of the
> locals, local events.
When I am approached with similar questions in other regions, my gut
response is to start with the suggestion from the person closest to
the culture/region in question and then "work out." In this case, I
think a discussion about motivation is less relevant than your second
sentence. We should always be working with local contributors and
non-contributors. This is a general answer that applies in most
scenarios. If we try to do all the work on our own our ambassadors
(and by extension the whole project) will just burn out.
you didnt get the point. Maybe we get it this way, just point me out an
community driven FOSS event in the region, who works since a few years.
You will hardly find them. Maybe now you get the point, you have to lead
them in organizing it.
> We have also get rid of the thinking that they will be the same kind
> of contributors as we currently have in other parts of the world.
> Here we will have more an amount of people that will join an hackfest
> or sprint. Forget about any idea to that ONLINE, it will not work.
I disagree completely. I think there are bright people everyone.
They may have, as your point out, different modalities, but I refuse
to believe we can't have a contributor everywhere.
sure you disagree, to something I never said. I never said we cant have
an contributor everywhere. Maybe you mean that there are "bright people
everywhere" that might be, but mostly this bright people have another
If, as you say, no one in Cambodia will do online participation,
we may need to look at defering action in Cambodia until we know what
we want to do that either helps people join our online community or
how we are going to bridge offline and online. I'd like to see
answers to this before we just start a parallel program to create an
isolated community. Fedora is driven in part by "network effect."
first of all we dont speak here not about Cambodia, we speaking about
the region thats not APAC thats Southeast Asia. I think there is enough
evidence, that I am totally opposed to creating isolated communities. I
think all the participants of the FAD's in APAC can tell you that I
always have to say "stop thinking as vietnamese, malaysian, chinese or
indian, start acting as Fedora APAC". But what shall I say your kind of
"network" I can see since a while very well.
> Why question yourself, why I never did hear from Yekleang Dy, did she
> really start with the Web Team? The answer is no, why she doesnt know
> what IRC is, not what is SSH and and and.... They have a problem to
> learn such things by themself, they need somebody next to them with
> an idea, what it is. Therefore you do here better FAD, hackfests and
> sprints or do you expect me to go to each potential contributor and
> do it personally? Can do that, send me a cheque for my living costs ;)
If you don't want to organize the events for Fedora then you are not
obligated to do so. You volunteered for this role and you are free to
leave it at any time.
Can you please show me, where I volunteered for this role and said I am
responsible when Brian Exelbierd has found somebody who might contribute
to educate him for you? I dont think its written in the role of the
Ambassadors and I never said personally I will do this. If you think
that somebody fits, its your responsebility to lead him in and not that
of somebody else!
I continue here doing it my way, getting a bunch of people together and
introduce them to all the stuff at once and not each single one alone.
If you think thats wrong, as I said send me my living costs then I can
spent this huge amount of time for each singulary.
However, I know that we have success stories around the world where
people are organizing those kinds of events. In fact, I think we
could all work together to write a good curriculum to use for these
kinds of events. These will be people and time commitments of the
project, but they don't have to be expensive in dollars.
speaking about "expensive in dollars" do you think its fair that a few
Greek can use all the budget of an Release Party for eating pizza or the
RedHatters of the Coimbatore office get a cake and even exceed the
budget limit for it and if you compare the amount of guests its nothing
compared to an event here.
Well I used just two leftover shirts from FUDCon and 50 stickers, seems
you speaking about it to the wrong person, start speaking to the others.
> But first of all this region needs more attention at all and a
> changing in thinking of some people. I give you an example, your
> budget changes created a lot of uncertainty here in APAC what leads
> to that no money is spent and the activity of all here broke down. So
> when in future the council or FPL wants to make changes in the
> budgeting or similar things, come up with a clear plan and not say,
> we will tell you later.....
The council has realized that it did not communicate its message as
clearly as intended and we have been taking steps to fix that. The
LATAM ORG FAD included me solely for this reason. LATAM doesn't need
my help to organize, but it was a great opportunity for me to help
convey the council's message. We can do this for APAC in the form
that makes the most sense.
really? As the decision was made that FAD get covered out of the
regional budget, I raised my voice that this is impossible. The costs of
one are roughly 5k $, great thing doing it out of a 10k budget.
I think that trying to pin the struggles of APAC on the budget is
merely covering up larger challenges, challenges you mention earlier.
I pinned the struggles long time ago
> Here its anyway more complicated to do things strategically and plan
> events long ahead, thats why APAC always has the problem spending his
> budget as planned. If you did read my post I already complained about
> it. You really commit here sometimes a lot of time in an event and
> then it doesnt happen and of course Asian dont blog about that, only
> success stories ;) We will not change that, they seeing that as a
> failure and telling that in public means they loose their face.
I need your help in understanding how we can work on this. You seem
to be saying that there is a) not enough time; b) things move slowly;
and c) planning over a longer horizon fails. I don't think I am
I not said things move slowly, I said things cost time. I mean you
should have noticed by yourself, I didnt want your first day in PP
sitting in the office waiting for the tshirt supplier and I told him I
will be only available until 10am. I joined you for lunch and he still
wasnt there, yeah he called as I was on the way back from the Riverside
where I am, he would stay before my office.
I give you another example, Ryans lost luggage and how long it took
until it arrived in the hotel. For you its totally normal airline lost
luggage, they are responsible for bringing it to you. Here I was called
5.30am, I could pick up the luggage at the airport. So I called the
office of the airline, the first operator did also wanted me to pick it
up there, also her supervisor thought this way at the begin, so I had an
short discussion with him who is the customer and who did miss to
fulfill the contract and he agreed that it would be their responsebility
to bring the luggage to the hotel. Ok then I got called by the airport
office, where to bring it. 2 hours later they called me they would start
from the airport now, I did send Ryan back to the hotel. Then the tuktuk
driver was calling me, saying where he stands 500 meter before the
hotel, I explained him they way and guess what he never arrived. During
lunch the airline office called me and he yelled at me, because my phone
was turned off for an hour and I said to him, it should be clear already
as the driver called me 2 hours ago and he said, he could not find the
person to deliver to. Well it arrived in the afternoon then.... A thing
which is totally normal in Europe or NA, costs here several hours to
solve, I did not have to call United as they lost my luggage for
There been many more of this examples during FUDCon here that involved
you, like going to the reception in the hotel and asking how much it
would be. See in Europe or NA, the receptionist would answer, yes we
will prepare for you, in an hour we will have it ready for you. Here,
she is not allowed to handle money, only her supervisor. So she says she
cant do. Where we would say in an hour and call the supervisor ;) So
going a second time, so that she does see you really want it or going to
the right person, however it needs more time ;)
Has nothing to do with moving slowly, things are more time consuming. I
need 3 meetings here, where I have back in Germany just 1.
I know that India and China have both had successes. Can we use those
ideas to help other countries? Should we start by focusing on the
areas of success and not spread ourselves so thin?
May I refresh your memory, you said once it might be because of in India
live more people we have more success there and I answered to you that I
dont think that in India living more people then in China. There might
be some other things which influence this, like two large RedHat offices
or do you think that the large amount of Czech contributors is also
because there live so many people there? You might also take the spent
budget over the last 10 years and look where the money went to and as
you read you might read also logfiles from the APAC meetings, maybe you
see the pattern I saw. The pattern I mean is where decisions was made
fast to spent it and where was endless discussions, leading to the nirvana.
I think each first semester economy student can tell you, that you have
not to invest in the Cash Cows anymore, they are there for milking and
you should push the money in your problem zones.
Copying ideas of India doesnt help, its like Kushal saying always "do
smaller events first". That is complete nonsense here. I can give you a
nice example, on my BDay Somvannda made a list of tech-oriented events
in Phnom Penh. It been 11 different events parallel like Women
Techmakers by the Google Developers Group, SmartStart from Smart Axiata,
Technovation festival, the Cellcard Super Data Race and and and.
I personally joined a talk of Stephen Wolfram here, well it was more a
private audience as there was only 4 people and this event was driven by
US AID Development Innovations, who have btw. a large network for
marketing. So I can do smaller events and will sit there then alone,
especially I even have enough money to provide the usual drinking water.
You might stop thinking in your terms, like success is only when we got
a contributor. Success is for me also when people know what Fedora is
and thats the current stage where we are in a lot of Asian countries.
You never invested here but you want to have output.... har har har.
There is missing a commitment to Asia and Asia is not just India!!!
Can you figure out what events are successful in your region and lets
copy their planning process.
Well, if you would read my blog more often you would see, that I am
involved already, but there is nothing to copy, there is no "planning".
Its just that the have reached a mass and the name of the event is well
known and that opens some doors but not always. That or you have some
money to spent, thats the key here.
Start thinking in asian terms not try to press your western view on it,
"planning process" is something what is not done here, they just do.
Just look at the example with the tech-oriented events, they dont look
if there are other events for the same audience that day, they just look
at their own schedule. Funny 2 of the events of that day are from the
> There are ideas for more events, also in the region and not just
> local, but in the current atmosphere Fedora is in, I will not do.
This is very much your right. I am sure your contributions will be
missed. I am sorry to see that you are choosing to no longer be a
Fedora Ambassador. I am sure that FAmA can help you get delisted.
Should you choose to rejoin the Ambassador community I am sure you
would be welcome. If you want to contribute more ideas, I encourage
you to work with the regional ambassadors.
You should stop interpreting things, I never said I will stop working as
an Ambassador and FAmA has not to help me to get delisted. I also have
not to be encouraged to work with the regional Ambassadors, I do. The
problem might be and I told you many times before not everything is
visible for you. I just said I dont do more events for the region right
now, as in the current mood Fedora is in it makes no sense. I think
everybody here has seen that you did say, spread the money just there
where output comes and that is the mood I mean.
I just think it makes no sense to spend more of my working time for it,
never said I will stop doing local events nor contributing to Fedora.
I candidating for FAmSCo again and I think a lot of people know, I am
not somebody who gives up, I fight for their rights as well for mine.
> br gnokii
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