Hello from the "Diversity Managers and Stuff" side.

It's easy to try to point out where people make a mistake, yet, it's difficult to accept that, as long as we keep looking for differences instead similarities, we are part of the problem. Everyone has a point of view, and that matter doesn't mean someone is wrong, so instead pointing out who's wrong or right, I think that we, as a community, need to learn from our mistakes and push forward.

One of the main issues we have is the lack of information about group of contributors that aren't as large, and we do have a lack of information about other issues that might help us understand not only why this groups don't grow as faster as others. Part of the job of the Diversity position is not to create tons of CoC to follow, but to understand why we keep arguing about simply misunderstandings like this one.

Everyone has a valid point, and I would like to take the best of each email and point it out:

* As Jona says, it's insanely hard for a non-english speaker to understand things that haven't been said the right way; it's even harder to listen to comments about something we invest so much time and effort.

* Robert's analogy about the baby is quite correct, a contributors group is like a baby that needs to be helped, needs to learn and sometimes needs to fall to learn how to stand again; however, I would like to point out that every coin has two sides, and that people needs to remember that usually those babies (aka. newborn contributor groups) have a mom or a dad that has to deal with the critiques about how they raise up their babies. Even those long term contributors were in this position before... why do we keep forgetting that?

* Kital has also an interesting point when he talks about the ambassadors as a group. If you have read carefully my email, I've reefer to them as "contributors group"... people, lets not forget that Fedora IS the community we are part of. A community is formed by groups of people that share something in common... we, all of us, are that community.

If we could invest just half of the time and effort we put on arguing about who's right or wrong into understanding where we fail and work to make it better... what a different thread this would be.

Anyone who's up to talk a bit more about this survey we are working on, and other implications about the "diversity world of magic", please feel free to join me at the #fedora-diversity channel on IRC

See ya!

2016-03-15 12:03 GMT-04:30 Jona Azizaj <jonaazizaj@gmail.com>:
Hi there again. Addressing some of the comments mentioned above:    
>>I remember times, where a FOSS contributor could say his opinion, but now we are in the era of "diversity managers" and "CoC" and everybody has to be afraid that somebody, like Jona can comes and point the finger at one and crying - there bad boy. And everybody doesnt read the log file to find out what happend, no everybody cries also "bad boy".<<

That's not a good note to start a response and probably not a good start for resolving this conversation. It's also funny you mention CoC when comments like "crying, pointing fingers and the bad guy" is bordering on a personal attack coloured with subjective views of yours, which do not really add to the discussion and makes me personally relieved that there is a Code of Conduct. I'm not able to fathom how new contributors would feel when faced with such comments, especially those who haven't contributed to an open source project before. At Fedora we encourage to assume Best Intentions with fellow community members, but the way you worded your message does not leave much space for it. 

Also, while you argument of expressing opinions is valid, it works both ways, so please allow me to express my opinion on the situation as well (which reflects other Albanian contributors who are not able to join the discussion here due to not being Ambassadors).

>>A normal human being, grown up and mature <<

This is again getting personal and I am not going to comment on your statement as long as you keep using that language.

>> but you preferred to throw dirt at him. <<

"Throwing dirt" is also a quite courageous expression which I doubt was the case here.

>>Its like the bible says, the one without sins may throw the first stone. So think about yourself are you without sins? Completely without failure I dont think so.<<

This is quite out of context here and unfortunately again based on assumptions. 

To put this into perspective, I deeply appreciate Robert's work and there was no intentions to make this personal (and I still fail to see where this looked personal) apart discussing a community matter which affects more than 2 people. I am sorry if anything derived into a personal notion, which was not the intention here.
Robert will also be part of OSCAL'16, the third edition of the regional open source conference the Albanian community is organizing, so there would be no reason to "throw dirt" when we welcome a fellow speaker in an event we organize. 


Regarding the points Robert Mayr mentioned:
We are not talking about the way phrases might have been worded, which is completely understandable, but as long as there are comments like gnokii's: >> make more out of something, what is just bad formulated but on the end THE TRUTH.<< it's not so clear anymore that it's just a case of bad wording (please correct me if there was another meaning in that statement). 

This is not at all a matter on a personal basis, rather than concerns voiced from a community, so I do not see it as a viable alternative to "continue with the work" when a community is feeling uncomfortable with the situation. Latter is also clearly indicated in the CoC:
"It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one." - which unfortunately might be the case if this discussion is not resolved.
I'm sorry if the starting email suggested that Robert does not appreciate the Albanian community's contribution (or any community for that case), as my further points were meant in a general manner, not directed at Robert. Which exact part did suggest otherwise? I also think that while Giannis might have used too colourful words, he is one of the most updated contributors when it comes to the EMEA region and complimenting one community doesn't necessarily mean to marginalize others.

Also, "getting back to business" might work for those who know what the "business" is about. But in rather new communities where handholding is needed sometimes, it's not the sole priority (although I'd prefer doing that, if it would be up to me).

Different communities have different needs and processes to reach the impact they plan, don't you think?


On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Nikos Roussos <comzeradd@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
On March 15, 2016 5:22:53 PM GMT+02:00, Robert Mayr <robyduck@fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>2016-03-15 15:36 GMT+01:00 Giannis Konstantinidis
>Disagreeing is pretty ok, but this can be done much better and less
>offensive. I'm sure you didn't mean it like I understand your post, and
>that's exactly the point. I'm also sure Robert didn't want to offense
>anybody here.
>Ah, and I'm saying one of the most correct because I know him and
>can look at his history.
>That's all, let's not waste more time on this and use the efforts to
>some fun again.

I'm really surprised of the reaction of some people here. Our foundation is about being Friends. It's not about being Friends, unless you are a long time contributor and have a free pass insulting volunteers and local communities.

Let's indeed focus in important things, like empowering local communities. Instead of letting our personal relations cloud our judgement.


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