Hello from the "Diversity Managers and Stuff" side.
It's easy to try to point out where people make a mistake, yet, it's
difficult to accept that, as long as we keep looking for differences
instead similarities, we are part of the problem. Everyone has a point of
view, and that matter doesn't mean someone is wrong, so instead pointing
out who's wrong or right, I think that we, as a community, need to learn
from our mistakes and push forward.
One of the main issues we have is the lack of information about group of
contributors that aren't as large, and we do have a lack of information
about other issues that might help us understand not only why this groups
don't grow as faster as others. Part of the job of the Diversity position
is not to create tons of CoC to follow, but to understand why we keep
arguing about simply misunderstandings like this one.
Everyone has a valid point, and I would like to take the best of each email
and point it out:
* As Jona says, it's insanely hard for a non-english speaker to understand
things that haven't been said the right way; it's even harder to listen to
comments about something we invest so much time and effort.
* Robert's analogy about the baby is quite correct, a contributors group is
like a baby that needs to be helped, needs to learn and sometimes needs to
fall to learn how to stand again; however, I would like to point out that
every coin has two sides, and that people needs to remember that usually
those babies (aka. newborn contributor groups) have a mom or a dad that has
to deal with the critiques about how they raise up their babies. Even those
long term contributors were in this position before... why do we keep
* Kital has also an interesting point when he talks about the ambassadors
as a group. If you have read carefully my email, I've reefer to them as
"contributors group"... people, lets not forget that Fedora IS the
community we are part of. A community is formed by groups of people that
share something in common... we, all of us, are that community.
If we could invest just half of the time and effort we put on arguing about
who's right or wrong into understanding where we fail and work to make it
better... what a different thread this would be.
Anyone who's up to talk a bit more about this survey we are working on, and
other implications about the "diversity world of magic", please feel free
to join me at the #fedora-diversity channel on IRC
2016-03-15 12:03 GMT-04:30 Jona Azizaj <jonaazizaj(a)gmail.com>:
Hi there again. Addressing some of the comments mentioned above:
>>I remember times, where a FOSS contributor could say his opinion, but
now we are in the era of "diversity managers" and "CoC" and everybody
to be afraid that somebody, like Jona can comes and point the finger at one
and crying - there bad boy. And everybody doesnt read the log file to find
out what happend, no everybody cries also "bad boy".<<
That's not a good note to start a response and probably not a good start
for resolving this conversation. It's also funny you mention CoC when
comments like "crying, pointing fingers and the bad guy" is bordering on a
personal attack coloured with subjective views of yours, which do not
really add to the discussion and makes me personally relieved that there is
a Code of Conduct. I'm not able to fathom how new contributors would feel
when faced with such comments, especially those who haven't contributed to
an open source project before. At Fedora we encourage to assume Best
Intentions with fellow community members, but the way you worded your
message does not leave much space for it.
Also, while you argument of expressing opinions is valid, it works both
ways, so please allow me to express my opinion on the situation as well
(which reflects other Albanian contributors who are not able to join the
discussion here due to not being Ambassadors).
>>A normal human being, grown up and mature <<
This is again getting personal and I am not going to comment on your
statement as long as you keep using that language.
>> but you preferred to throw dirt at him. <<
"Throwing dirt" is also a quite courageous expression which I doubt was
the case here.
>>Its like the bible says, the one without sins may throw the first stone.
So think about yourself are you without sins? Completely without failure I
dont think so.<<
This is quite out of context here and unfortunately again based on
To put this into perspective, I deeply appreciate Robert's work and there
was no intentions to make this personal (and I still fail to see where this
looked personal) apart discussing a community matter which affects more
than 2 people. I am sorry if anything derived into a personal notion, which
was not the intention here.
Robert will also be part of OSCAL'16, the third edition of the regional
open source conference the Albanian community is organizing, so there would
be no reason to "throw dirt" when we welcome a fellow speaker in an event
Regarding the points Robert Mayr mentioned:
We are not talking about the way phrases might have been worded, which is
completely understandable, but as long as there are comments like gnokii's:
>> make more out of something, what is just bad formulated but on the end
THE TRUTH.<< it's not so clear anymore that it's just a case of bad
(please correct me if there was another meaning in that statement).
This is not at all a matter on a personal basis, rather than concerns
voiced from a community, so I do not see it as a viable alternative to
"continue with the work" when a community is feeling uncomfortable with the
situation. Latter is also clearly indicated in the CoC:
"It's important to remember that a community where people feel
uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one." - which unfortunately
might be the case if this discussion is not resolved.
I'm sorry if the starting email suggested that Robert does not appreciate
the Albanian community's contribution (or any community for that case), as
my further points were meant in a general manner, not directed at Robert.
Which exact part did suggest otherwise? I also think that while Giannis
might have used too colourful words, he is one of the most updated
contributors when it comes to the EMEA region and complimenting one
community doesn't necessarily mean to marginalize others.
Also, "getting back to business" might work for those who know what the
"business" is about. But in rather new communities where handholding is
needed sometimes, it's not the sole priority (although I'd prefer doing
that, if it would be up to me).
Different communities have different needs and processes to reach the
impact they plan, don't you think?
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Nikos Roussos <
> On March 15, 2016 5:22:53 PM GMT+02:00, Robert Mayr <
> robyduck(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> >2016-03-15 15:36 GMT+01:00 Giannis Konstantinidis
> >Disagreeing is pretty ok, but this can be done much better and less
> >offensive. I'm sure you didn't mean it like I understand your post, and
> >that's exactly the point. I'm also sure Robert didn't want to
> >anybody here.
> >Ah, and I'm saying one of the most correct because I know him and
> >can look at his history.
> >That's all, let's not waste more time on this and use the efforts to
> >some fun again.
> I'm really surprised of the reaction of some people here. Our foundation
> is about being Friends. It's not about being Friends, unless you are a long
> time contributor and have a free pass insulting volunteers and local
> Let's indeed focus in important things, like empowering local
> communities. Instead of letting our personal relations cloud our judgement.
> ambassadors mailing list
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